"all have sinned"

[Winman]

I am very happy to hear this- very happy.

Paul said sin is the transgression of law, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died.

How could this be? Easy. When he was a child he could not comprehend the law and so was alive. But when he got old enough to understand the law, he became accountable for his sins. Sin revived and killed him.

What law did those from Adam to Moses have? The laws written upon the heart and the conscience. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, this is exactly what happened, they gained this knowledge, and I believe this is what caused their spiritual death.

This knowledge of good and evil is passed down, we all have it, though it takes a few years to develop. Children generally begin to understand right and wrong before God as they approach their teens. This is about the time you can see the direction a person will go in life, good or bad.

So those after Adam knew good and evil, read the scriptures. They knew murder, lying, and stealing was wrong, well before Moses and the law came. Therefore they were accountable and died for their sins.

 

[Luke2427]

Paul said sin is the transgression of law, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died.

How could this be? Easy. When he was a child he could not comprehend the law and so was alive. But when he got old enough to understand the law, he became accountable for his sins. Sin revived and killed him.

What law did those from Adam to Moses have? The laws written upon the heart and the conscience. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, this is exactly what happened, they gained this knowledge, and I believe this is what caused their spiritual death.

This knowledge of good and evil is passed down, we all have it, though it takes a few years to develop. Children generally begin to understand right and wrong before God as they approach their teens. This is about the time you can see the direction a person will go in life, good or bad.

So those after Adam knew good and evil, read the scriptures. They knew murder, lying, and stealing was wrong, well before Moses and the law came. Therefore they were accountable and died for their sins.

This is not terrible- not fantastic, if I am to be honest (it is made up of too many assumptions that cannot be proven rather than clear facts)- but not terrible.

At least it not this business that children are born spiritually like Adam pre-fall. At least this position recognizes the orthodox doctrine that ALL are sinners in need of a Savior in order to enter Heaven.

 

[Luke2427]

Of course this is NOT consistent with your post # 9 of this very thread where you said:

Yes, originally I was going to ask how a person can be born a sinner, as sin is something you do. No one is born a bank robber, you must actually rob a bank to be a bank robber.

You are correct Webdog, perhaps this "all" is qualified.

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul said sin is the transgression of law, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died.

How could this be? Easy. When he was a child he could not comprehend the law and so was alive. But when he got old enough to understand the law, he became accountable for his sins. Sin revived and killed him.

Winman's position is about where I am. I do believe that babies are born with a sinful nature, which will eventually manifest itself in sinfulness. Actually, it will manifest itself in a way that would be sin if they did it when they were much older.

Ever watch toddlers in the nursery. They don't want to share and want their way. I think the first word toddlers learn in the nursery is "MINE!"
The next three are "I WANT IT!" In my view, they are expressing their sinful nature, but are not sinning, because they haven't been made aware that it's sin.

I'm sure somebody can pick holes in this view. I welcome critique.

I may be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.

 

[Luke2427]

Winman's position is about where I am. I do believe that babies are born with a sinful nature, which will eventually manifest itself in sinfulness. Actually, it will manifest itself in a way that would be sin if they did it when they were much older.

Ever watch toddlers in the nursery. They don't want to share and want their way. I think the first word toddlers learn in the nursery is "MINE!"
The next three are "I WANT IT!" In my view, they are expressing their sinful nature, but are not sinning, because they haven't been made aware that it's sin.

I'm sure somebody can pick holes in this view. I welcome critique.

I may be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.

Please take a moment to look at the quote I have of Winman in post 243 and tell me if you agree with that position or not.

 

[Winman]

Of course this is NOT consistent with your post # 9 of this very thread where you said:

Sin is something you do. Babies can do almost nothing the day they are born, certainly not sin. However, as a child grows and becomes aware of self (remember Adam and Eve realized they were naked?), they also begin to know right and wrong. At this point they can choose to sin and become sinners.

But still, this is not a true comprehension of guilt before God, that takes a little longer. But a little child can understand it is wrong to lie, or hit their brother or sister, and this will make Mommy and Daddy mad. They have a sense that it is wrong, but they do not understand they can suffer eternal damnation for these sins, that takes a little longer.

That babies die is because the ground was cursed, and our bodies are made of the dust of the ground. You do inherit your body from your parents.

When you get saved, you still have a body under the curse that will die.

 

[Luke2427]

Sin is something you do. Babies can do almost nothing the day they are born, certainly not sin. However, as a child grows and becomes aware of self (remember Adam and Eve realized they were naked?), they also begin to know right and wrong. At this point they can chose to sin and become sinners.

But still, this is not a true comprehension of guilt before God, that takes a little longer. But a little child can understand it is wrong to lie, or hit their brother or sister, and this will make Mommy and Daddy mad. They have a sense that it is wrong, but they do not understand they can suffer eternal damnation for these sins, that takes a little longer.

That babies die is because the ground was cursed, and our bodies are made of the dust of the ground. You do inherit your body from your parents.

When you get saved, you still have a body under the curse that will die.

Are babies sinners or not, Winman?

If not, why do they need the cross?

 

[Winman]

Luke, being born with a body that has lusts and desires does not make you a sinner. Once again, sin is something you do.

This concept that being born flesh makes you a sinner is why the Catholics invented the ridiculous doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, for if flesh is sinful, Jesus would have been born a sinner.

Jesus got tired, he got hungry just like we do. His body was just like ours. But he never obeyed the lusts of his body and sinned.

This is why the Devil tried to tempt him with bread, Jesus's body had the same desires our body has. After 40 days of fasting he was very hungry.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, being born with a body that has lusts and desires does not make you a sinner. Once again, sin is something you do.

This concept that being born flesh makes you a sinner is why the Catholics invented the ridiculous doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, for if flesh is sinful, Jesus would have been born a sinner.

Jesus got tired, he got hungry just like we do. His body was just like ours. But he never obeyed the lusts of his body and sinned.

This is why the Devil tried to tempt him with bread, Jesus's body had the same desires our body has. After 40 days of fasting he was very hungry.

Then we are not born sinners. Have the backbone to say it clearly.

You do not believe that babies are sinners. Humans come into this world without sin. Have the backbone to say it.

Now Tom, do you still align yourself with Winman here? Because this is Pelagianism- whether watered down or not, I cannot yet tell.

Pelagius had no problem with the idea that humans are born AFFECTED by sin and with the potential to sin- none at all. Pelagius' heresy was saying that we are NOT born sinners.

 

[Tom Butler]

Please take a moment to look at the quote I have of Winman in post 243 and tell me if you agree with that position or not.

Yes, originally I was going to ask how a person can be born a sinner, as sin is something you do. No one is born a bank robber, you must actually rob a bank to be a bank robber.

My position is that we are not born sinners, but born with a sinful nature, which will eventually express itself in willful sin. So yes, I see this the same way as Winman.

I think my position is similar to that of Pelagius, but I would not call myself a Pelagian. It's a matter of semantics. I believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, but that doesn't make me a Presbyterian.

Why is it heresy to state the obvious? An infant does not come into the world sinning.

Are you taking the position that he does?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, being born with a body that has lusts and desires does not make you a sinner. Once again, sin is something you do.

This is Pelagianism.

We are NOT born with original sin. We are not born sinners. We are not sinners until we knowingly commit sin ourselves.

Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (AD 354 – AD 420/440), although he denied, at least at some point in his life, many of the doctrines associated with his name. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin...In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for obeying the Gospel in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humans are sinners by choice, they are therefore criminals who need the atonement of Jesus Christ. Sinners are not victims, they are criminals who need pardon.

You will find that Winman's remarks consistently line up with this doctrine.

 

[Luke2427]

My position is that we are not born sinners, but born with a sinful nature, which will eventually express itself in willful sin. So yes, I see this the same way as Winman.

I think my position is similar to that of Pelagius, but I would not call myself a Pelagian. It's a matter of semantics. I believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, but that doesn't make me a Presbyterian.

I am very surprised to hear that, Tom.

So let me ask you, then: How do babies who cannot put faith in Christ for salvation get to heaven in your view?

 

[Rippon]

Ever watch toddlers in the nursery. They don't want to share and want their way. I think the first word toddlers learn in the nursery is "MINE!"
The next three are "I WANT IT!" In my view, they are expressing their sinful nature, but are not sinning, because they haven't been made aware that it's sin.

I can hardly believe that you wrote that Tom. "Expressing their sinful nature,but are not sinning." The expression of sin is certainly sinning. Mere sinful thoughts are expressions of sinning.

There was a supposedly Reformed poster who told me a year or more ago that there was such a thing as "innocent guilt" and I had the same reaction.What in the world is going on with such thinking? It's not according to the Word of God.

 

[David Lamb]

I was not chosen in the womb, but was included with believing Jews when I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed.

I was not chosen in the womb either. It was much earlier. Paul, writing to Christians at Ephesus, wrote in Ephesians 1.3-4:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
​

The only way I can see for those verses and you to be correct is to say that all the members of the church in Ephesus were Jewish.

Like I said they were the one's chosen before the foundation of the world the world, but those who were not able to enter was because of unbelief. I am a dog who begged at the master table

So what difference does God's choice make? If man, whether unbelieving Jews or unbelieving gentiles, can thwart God's choice by unbelief, then it's not God's choice at all. Yet the bible says that it is.

 

[Winman]

This is Pelagianism.

We are NOT born with original sin. We are not born sinners. We are not sinners until we knowingly commit sin ourselves.



You will find that Winman's remarks consistently line up with this doctrine.

I absolutely DO NOT believe anybody can get saved without God's aid. If God did not reveal his Son Jesus to us, we would all be in darkness and hopelessly lost. Man would never conceive the gospel of his own self, NEVER.

But let me ask you Luke, was Jesus born with a body just like ours? Did he have desires like hunger?

Or do you believe as the Catholics that he had a body that was different than ours?

 

[Luke2427]

I absolutely DO NOT believe anybody can get saved without God's aid. If God did not reveal his Son Jesus to us, we would all be in darkness and hopelessly lost. Man would never conceive the gospel of his own self, NEVER.

But let me ask you Luke, was Jesus born with a body just like ours? Did he have desires like hunger?

Or do you believe as the Catholics that he had a body that was different than ours?

You are Pelagian on original sin. You are semi-pelagian on the rest.

 

[Luke2427]

I absolutely DO NOT believe anybody can get saved without God's aid. If God did not reveal his Son Jesus to us, we would all be in darkness and hopelessly lost. Man would never conceive the gospel of his own self, NEVER.

But let me ask you Luke, was Jesus born with a body just like ours? Did he have desires like hunger?

Or do you believe as the Catholics that he had a body that was different than ours?

His body was not sinful, it did not inherit a sin nature. That is not catholic- that is orthodox.

 

[Bro. James]

It grieved God that He had made man...

God destroyed this planet and everything on it save for eight souls and the animals on the ark. Noah and his family were spared by the Grace of God. He could have destroyed everything--it all belongs to Him.

All of human kind deserves to be separated from God. Yet he has chosen to save some, not because they did one thing to earn salvation; but because God loves His creation. He calls them, sanctifies them, and keeps them by His Grace. There are multitudes who have died never having heard The Gospel. Yet, there are multitudes, in white robes, giving Him glory throughout eternity. It is all according to His purpose for His pleasure. All belongs to Him--He can do whatever He purposes.

Grace, Grace, wonderful Grace,

Jesus said the End Time would be like the days of Noah. Is God about to close the door of the Ark again?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[psalms109:31]

I was not chosen in the womb either. It was much earlier. Paul, writing to Christians at Ephesus, wrote in Ephesians 1.3-4:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
​

The only way I can see for those verses and you to be correct is to say that all the members of the church in Ephesus were Jewish.



So what difference does God's choice make? If man, whether unbelieving Jews or unbelieving gentiles, can thwart God's choice by unbelief, then it's not God's choice at all. Yet the bible says that it is.

What I see it is the tree that was chosen before foundation of the world, the tree of life. That the Jews was chosen to be in they where is precious possession. They belonged to Him. They were not able to enter, cut out for unbelief. As Jesus says if you disown me I will disown you. Then He kept those who are meek and humble, who will trust in the Lord. Then He included Gentiles when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Then end result the only one that remains in the tree is believers. So those chosen before the foundation of the world was not individuals, but the children of Abraham, who believe God and is credited righteousness. Now they have become the children of God His precious possession, born of the word of God, the word of Jesus which is the word of life. It is the work of God that we believe, through the words of Christ our faith without it you are dead.

God knows who they are, because He has the end result.

 

[glfredrick]

Winman's position is about where I am. I do believe that babies are born with a sinful nature, which will eventually manifest itself in sinfulness. Actually, it will manifest itself in a way that would be sin if they did it when they were much older.

Ever watch toddlers in the nursery. They don't want to share and want their way. I think the first word toddlers learn in the nursery is "MINE!"
The next three are "I WANT IT!" In my view, they are expressing their sinful nature, but are not sinning, because they haven't been made aware that it's sin.

I'm sure somebody can pick holes in this view. I welcome critique.

I may be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.

How about a question to test your theory?

Would you say that it is sinful for someone to lask out and kick another human being in the spleen?