God so loved...

[Robert Snow]

Since the bible states: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 NKJV.

If Calvinism is true and God only loves the elect, doesn't this make both God and Christians who reach out to the lost liars? I certainly don't believe this for a second, but if Calvinism is true then...

I mean we are sent to preach and we quote this verse and tell the lost that God loves them, all the while knowing that God probably doesn't really love them all. How does this not make us liars?

Of course, according to the true teachings of scripture, God does love all mankind and does desire them all to repent and be saved.

 

[Tom Butler]

Since the bible states: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 NKJV.

If Calvinism is true and God only loves the elect, doesn't this make both God and Christians who reach out to the lost liars? I certainly don't believe this for a second, but if Calvinism is true then...

I mean we are sent to preach and we quote this verse and tell the lost that God loves them, all the while knowing that God probably doesn't really love them all. How does this not make us liars?

Of course, according to the true teachings of scripture, God does love all mankind and does desire them all to repent and be saved.

When Jesus gave us the Great Commission, he commanded us to teach all nations. When Paul preached to the philosophers on Mars Hill in Athens, he preached the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent. And some believed.

That is the message, Calvinist or whatever.

Calvinists are perfectly comfortable (and truthful) in preaching that Christ loves and died for sinners. And they are also be truthful by saying to a lost person, "Jesus died for sinners just like you."

No witness is required to try to figure out who the elect are. Our job is to spread the gospel, call people to repentance and faith, and leave the response to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said his sheep will hear his voice and follow him. And those who are not his sheep won't believe..

 

[Tom Butler]

Maybe somebody can help me out.

Find for me a verse in the New Testament where any believer said to a lost person, "Jesus loves you and died for you."

 

[idonthavetimeforthis]

Maybe somebody can help me out.

Find for me a verse in the New Testament where any believer said to a lost person, "Jesus loves you and died for you."

I John 4:9-10 - "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. "

That verse is close - but who the "us" & "we" is would be the debate, I suppose.

 

[Winman]

Since the bible states: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 NKJV.

If Calvinism is true and God only loves the elect, doesn't this make both God and Christians who reach out to the lost liars? I certainly don't believe this for a second, but if Calvinism is true then...

I mean we are sent to preach and we quote this verse and tell the lost that God loves them, all the while knowing that God probably doesn't really love them all. How does this not make us liars?

Of course, according to the true teachings of scripture, God does love all mankind and does desire them all to repent and be saved.

If God doesn't love every man and Jesus did not die for every man as Calvinism teaches, then how do Calvinists know God loves them, and how do they know Jesus died for their sins?

How can you trust Jesus as your Savior if you do not know he died for you?

So, in Calvinism you cannot honestly tell another person Jesus died for them, and you cannot know that Jesus died for yourself as well.

 

[The Archangel]

Since the bible states: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 NKJV.

If Calvinism is true and God only loves the elect, doesn't this make both God and Christians who reach out to the lost liars? I certainly don't believe this for a second, but if Calvinism is true then...

I mean we are sent to preach and we quote this verse and tell the lost that God loves them, all the while knowing that God probably doesn't really love them all. How does this not make us liars?

Of course, according to the true teachings of scripture, God does love all mankind and does desire them all to repent and be saved.

I just wanted to point out that the translation of "God so loved the world" does not mean "He loved the world so much."

The phrase is better translated: God loved the world in this manner. If I were translating this for the common vernacular, I would translate it: God demonstrated His love for the world

Not to mention, as I and others have pointed out, that the translation of "whosoever" is not correct either. The proper translation is "all the believing ones."

Also, one must consider what John typically means with his usage of "World." Therein lies the answer.

The Archangel

 

[R. Lawson]

Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
:thumbsup:

 

[preachinjesus]

Please, oh please just stop. Just stop this insane conversation! For the sake of the children just stop.


Thank you in advance...

 

[The Archangel]

Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
:thumbsup:

Is that the HCSB translation?

 

[R. Lawson]

Is that the HCSB translation?

Yessir.

 

[The Archangel]

Yessir.

I find the HCSB (Hard Core Southern Baptist) translation to be very good. I'm a BIG fan of the ESV myself. But, the ESV isn't perfect.

John 3:16 in the HCSB is an excellent example of bucking tradition and sentimentality to convey what the text actually says.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[R. Lawson]

I find the HCSB (Hard Core Southern Baptist) translation to be very good. I'm a BIG fan of the ESV myself. But, the ESV isn't perfect.

John 3:16 in the HCSB is an excellent example of bucking tradition and sentimentality to convey what the text actually says.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I don't care much for the ESV, but I do read from it. I tend to like the NRSV over the ESV. Sometimes the ESV will sound better than the NRSV, though. I probably just need to read the ESV more. Oh! And I wish Crossway would make a giant print ESV. :BangHead: Holman has giant print for the HCSB...

The HCSB is definitely in my top five favorite translations, though.

 

[jbh28]

Since the bible states: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 NKJV.

If Calvinism is true and God only loves the elect, doesn't this make both God and Christians who reach out to the lost liars? I certainly don't believe this for a second, but if Calvinism is true then...

I mean we are sent to preach and we quote this verse and tell the lost that God loves them, all the while knowing that God probably doesn't really love them all. How does this not make us liars?

Of course, according to the true teachings of scripture, God does love all mankind and does desire them all to repent and be saved.

John 3:16 teaches that God loves the world. Everyone (out of the world) that believes will be saved. When we go out to the world and preach the gospel, we are not to try to decide who is the elect and who are not. We are to just preach the gospel.

I do say that God has a desire for all to be saved. However, I don't believe that is his greatest desire. If it was, then all would be saved.

How can you trust Jesus as your Savior if you do not know he died for you?

So, in Calvinism you cannot honestly tell another person Jesus died for them, and you cannot know that Jesus died for yourself as well.

If you believe, then he died for you. If you are a believer, then you are elect.

 

[jbh28]

I don't care much for the ESV, but I do read from it. I tend to like the NRSV over the ESV. Sometimes the ESV will sound better than the NRSV, though. I probably just need to read the ESV more. Oh! And I wish Crossway would make a giant print ESV. :BangHead: Holman has giant print for the HCSB...

The HCSB is definitely in my top five favorite translations, though.

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...ge=975318&sp=58063&event=1003LGPT|29953|58063

 

[R. Lawson]

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...ge=975318&sp=58063&event=1003LGPT|29953|58063

Unfortunately, no. I own one of those. They're large print (12px) whereas giant print is 13px and above. (Something like 14px or 16px would be nice!):1_grouphug:

 

[Winman]

John 3:16 teaches that God loves the world. Everyone (out of the world) that believes will be saved. When we go out to the world and preach the gospel, we are not to try to decide who is the elect and who are not. We are to just preach the gospel.

I do say that God has a desire for all to be saved. However, I don't believe that is his greatest desire. If it was, then all would be saved.

If you believe, then he died for you. If you are a believer, then you are elect.

You cannot possibly believe a promise that was not made to you.

According to your doctrine, if you were not elected before the foundation of the world, then Jesus did not die for you, and his promise does not apply to you. If Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe, you are lost.

Your doctrine teaches that Jesus did not die for every man (Limited Atonement), therefore you have no idea if Jesus died for you.

How can you have faith in an uncertainty?

Fortunately, my God loves all men, and my Jesus died for all men. I know for a certainty his promise applies to me, therefore I can believe and depend upon it.

 

[jbh28]

You cannot possibly believe a promise that was not made to you.

According to your doctrine, if you were not elected before the foundation of the world, then Jesus did not die for you, and his promise does not apply to you. If Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe, you are lost.

Your doctrine teaches that Jesus did not die for every man (Limited Atonement), therefore you have no idea if Jesus died for you.

How can you have faith in an uncertainty?

Fortunately, my God loves all men, and my Jesus died for all men. I know for a certainty his promise applies to me, therefore I can believe and depend upon it.

Stop being dishonest with the doctrine. You have been correct many times over but you continue to misrepresent. If you believe in Christ, you are saved. It means that the atonement is for you. EVERY CALVINIST AGREES WITH THAT. There is no uncertainty in faith. If you have faith, then you are saved. Everyone that believes is saved. There is no one that will believe that is not saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe somebody can help me out.

Find for me a verse in the New Testament where any believer said to a lost person, "Jesus loves you and died for you."

I am still looking.....wait let me re-read the book of Acts, surely the Apostles must have preached that.

 

[Winman]

Stop being dishonest with the doctrine. You have been correct many times over but you continue to misrepresent. If you believe in Christ, you are saved. It means that the atonement is for you. EVERY CALVINIST AGREES WITH THAT. There is no uncertainty in faith. If you have faith, then you are saved. Everyone that believes is saved. There is no one that will believe that is not saved.

That is ridiculous. If Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe, the promise does not apply to you.

Let's say Bob, Joe, and Tom are standing in front of me. I say, "Bob and Joe, put out your hand and I will give you a thousand dollars free!" They believe me and stick out their hands, and I hand them the money.

Tom sticks out his hand. I ask, "What are you doing?" Tom says, "I believed you, so I am holding out my hand for the money you promised." I answer, "I never promised you money, I promised Bob and Joe, my promise did not apply to you."

Well, that would be the case if Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe.

You can rationalize it anyway you want, if Jesus did not die for all men, then you have no idea if Jesus died for you.

You could be fooling yourself like Tom was.

It is not your faith that saves you, it is whether Jesus died for your sins that saves you.

Yes, you have to believe, but you must believe on the work Jesus performed on your behalf. You don't know that he did that for you in your doctrine.

 

[jbh28]

That is ridiculous. If Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe, the promise does not apply to you.

Let's say Bob, Joe, and Tom are standing in front of me. I say, "Bob and Joe, put out your hand and I will give you a thousand dollars free!" They believe me and stick out their hands, and I hand them the money.

Tom sticks out his hand. I ask, "What are you doing?" Tom says, "I believed you, so I am holding out my hand for the money you promised." I answer, "I never promised you money, I promised Bob and Joe, my promise did not apply to you."

Well, that would be the case if Jesus did not die for you, it doesn't matter what you believe.

You can rationalize it anyway you want, if Jesus did not die for all men, then you have no idea if Jesus died for you.

You could be fooling yourself like Tom was.

It is not your faith that saves you, it is whether Jesus died for your sins that saves you.

Yes, you have to believe, but you must believe on the work Jesus performed on your behalf. You don't know that he did that for you in your doctrine.

Again, you purposefully misrepresent. No Calvinist believes that. there is not one person that will ever believe that god will say no, this wasn't for you. If tom believed, then the atonement was for him. Remember John 3:16. Everyone that believes will be saved. No one that believes will be lost.

In your example. Christ would accept Tom. It was intended for Tom. he believed. He is elect. And Jesus promised eternal life. life to everyone that believes. So yes, the promise was for tom. The promise is for everyone. Everyone out of the entire world...every man, woman and child that has ever lived, is living, or will live, that believes will be saved.

Please winman, be honest. The Bible teaches to be honest. I don't say you believe something that you don't. I don't lie about you, please give the same back. I repeat again EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED! Now, anything you write that says anything contrary to that is a purposeful misrepresentation and unchristlike response from you.