God so loved...

[Jarthur001]

election never stops anyone from being saved from their sins, if they want to be saved from their sins. However, election allows people to come and be saved from their sins.

 

[jbh28]

election never stops anyone from being saved from their sins, if they want to be saved from their sins. However, election allows people to come and be saved from their sins.

I like how you phrased that. so often election is looked as a negative thing, when it is really the other way around.

 

[Winman]

Again, you purposefully misrepresent. No Calvinist believes that. there is not one person that will ever believe that god will say no, this wasn't for you. If tom believed, then the atonement was for him. Remember John 3:16. Everyone that believes will be saved. No one that believes will be lost.

In your example. Christ would accept Tom. It was intended for Tom. he believed. He is elect. And Jesus promised eternal life. life to everyone that believes. So yes, the promise was for tom. The promise is for everyone. Everyone out of the entire world...every man, woman and child that has ever lived, is living, or will live, that believes will be saved.

Please winman, be honest. The Bible teaches to be honest. I don't say you believe something that you don't. I don't lie about you, please give the same back. I repeat again EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED! Now, anything you write that says anything contrary to that is a purposeful misrepresentation and unchristlike response from you.

Many people believe that are not saved, because they do not believe the correct thing.

You have to believe that Jesus died for YOU.

If Jesus did not die for all men, you have no way of knowing that he died for you.

Look, the only way you can know Jesus died for you is for you to know you were one of the fortunate people God chose or elected before the foundatin of the world.

It is you Calvinists that insist God must elect you to be saved. If he did not elect you, then Jesus did not die for you, and you cannot be saved.

 

[jbh28]

Many people believe that are not saved, because they do not believe the correct thing.

You have to believe that Jesus died for YOU.

If Jesus did not die for all men, you have no way of knowing that he died for you.

Look, the only way you can know Jesus died for you is for you to know you were one of the fortunate people God chose or elected before the foundatin of the world.

It is you Calvinists that insist God must elect you to be saved. If he did not elect you, then Jesus did not die for you, and you cannot be saved.

You cannot be saved because you don't believe. Election, as was mentioned, doesn't limit salvation. Christ's atonement on the cross is sufficient for all.

come vote in my poll. you will see where I clearly marked that all the believers are saved.

 

[Winman]

You cannot be saved because you don't believe. Election, as was mentioned, doesn't limit salvation. Christ's atonement on the cross is sufficient for all.

come vote in my poll. you will see where I clearly marked that all the believers are saved.

Then you are not a consistent Calvinist, you do not believe in Limited Atonement.

But don't tell me I am misrepresenting Calvinism, I just googled "how do I know I am elect" and many Cal/DoG sites popped up where people were asking this question, including several Spurgeon sermons.

I understand your doctrine far better than you give me credit for.

 

[jbh28]

Then you are not a consistent Calvinist, you do not believe in Limited Atonement.

Many Calvinists believe just as I do. "Sufficient for all, efficient for the elect" And I don't try to line up my doctrine what that of Calvinism. If it does agree, then it agrees. If it's different then it's different. My doctrines is closes to that of Calvinism, though I'm very low on it.

But don't tell me I am misrepresenting Calvinism, I just googled "how do I know I am elect" and many Cal/DoG sites popped up where people were asking this question, including several Spurgeon sermons.

I understand your doctrine far better than you give me credit for.

No, you are misrepresenting Calvinism. When you say things that are not what Calvinists believe, then you are misrepresenting them. You should have gotten the clue when ALL Calvinists say you are misrepresenting them.

Take a peak at this site and you might get a better understanding. Then we can have biblical discussions instead of wasting time with your straw men.

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/avoidingconfusion.html

-- "We are happy enough with the statement that the blood of Christ is sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for the elect."

 

[Winman]

Many Calvinists believe just as I do. "Sufficient for all, efficient for the elect" And I don't try to line up my doctrine what that of Calvinism. If it does agree, then it agrees. If it's different then it's different. My doctrines is closes to that of Calvinism, though I'm very low on it.


No, you are misrepresenting Calvinism. When you say things that are not what Calvinists believe, then you are misrepresenting them. You should have gotten the clue when ALL Calvinists say you are misrepresenting them.

Take a peak at this site and you might get a better understanding. Then we can have biblical discussions instead of wasting time with your straw men.

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/avoidingconfusion.html

-- "We are happy enough with the statement that the blood of Christ is sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for the elect."

Well, I just watched a video entitled "How do I know if I am one of God's elect?" and went to several other sites and read, so I in no way misrepresented Calvinism, this is a common question.

I almost laughed at the answers given, everybody got all Arminian and said "just believe".

What? Wouldn't that be telling a person to perform a work? That's what you say when us non-Cals tell folks to believe. What a joke.

 

[jbh28]

Well, I just watched a video entitled "How do I know if I am one of God's elect?" and went to several other sites and read, so I in no way misrepresented Calvinism, this is a common question.

I almost laughed at the answers given, everybody got all Arminian and said "just believe".

What? Wouldn't that be telling a person to perform a work? That's what you say when us non-Cals tell folks to believe. What a joke.

Are you talking about the video from lanech on youtube?

 

[Robert Snow]

I just wanted to point out that the translation of "God so loved the world" does not mean "He loved the world so much."

The phrase is better translated: God loved the world in this manner. If I were translating this for the common vernacular, I would translate it: God demonstrated His love for the world

Not to mention, as I and others have pointed out, that the translation of "whosoever" is not correct either. The proper translation is "all the believing ones."

Also, one must consider what John typically means with his usage of "World." Therein lies the answer.

The Archangel

I should have known better. After all, every English translation is obviously wrong, but you, somehow, have it correct. Please, give me a break! The only way you can make Calvinism work is to change the meaning of verses like this one.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
ESV

Here is John 3:16 in the reformer's favorite version.

Looks like it is saying that "God so loved the world" but that couldn't be right, could it. After all, it doesn't fit in with Calvinism.

 

[Robert Snow]

Stop being dishonest with the doctrine. You have been correct many times over but you continue to misrepresent. If you believe in Christ, you are saved. It means that the atonement is for you. EVERY CALVINIST AGREES WITH THAT. There is no uncertainty in faith. If you have faith, then you are saved. Everyone that believes is saved. There is no one that will believe that is not saved.

Did Jesus die for ALL sinners like the Word of God says, or didn't He? Who is correct, the Word of God or Calvin? I'll take God's Word over Calvin, or any other person.

 

[jbh28]

Did Jesus die for ALL sinners like the Word of God says, or didn't He? Who is correct, the Word of God or Calvin? I'll take God's Word over Calvin, or any other person.

You can take your attitude elsewhere...

but since you made the statement, which verse are you speaking about that says that Jesus died for all sinners?

 

[Winman]

Are you talking about the video from lanech on youtube?

Didn't pay attention to the poster's name. I read part of an article by Pink, he said basically the same thing, read a little Spurgeon and several other articles.

I am not going to keep arguing, you Cals NEVER admit when you are wrong. These articles prove I am correct and have not misrepresented Calvinism, that is just a lame excuse you guys use all the time. Get real.

 

[jbh28]

Didn't pay attention to the poster's name. I read part of an article by Pink, he said basically the same thing, read a little Spurgeon and several other articles.

I am not going to keep arguing, you Cals NEVER admit when you are wrong. These articles prove I am correct and have not misrepresented Calvinism, that is just a lame excuse you guys use all the time. Get real.

You do misrepresent all the time Winman. why don't you just admit that? If we always say you misrepresent(like you saying I don't believe all people that believe are elect) but you won't admit it.

I looked for that video and he said what I said. you want to know if you are elect, believe. "God's love and willingness to save all who repent and believe is as plain as day." You say we don't believe that. You are wrong in what we believe. It's not a matter of admitting we are wrong about theology or you about theology. We are not even discussing that. We are wasting time with you saying what you think we believe even though we say we don't believe that. If you actually think you are right, then you wouldn't have to misrepresent.

And you never give any quotes either. Please give me one quote from Pink, Spurgeon or any other Calvinist that says that people can believe, but because they are not elect, they are not saved. Either give one, or admit you are wrong. If I misrepresented you, and you said I did, I would admit I was wrong. I've done it before.

 

[Robert Snow]

You can take your attitude elsewhere...

Sorry, I guess I've spent too much time around Calvinists; their attitude has rubbed off on me.

but since you made the statement, which verse are you speaking about that says that Jesus died for all sinners?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever includes all sinners.

And:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Then there's:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Also:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[jbh28]

Sorry, I guess I've spent too much time around Calvinists; their attitude has rubbed off on me.

We all can have that problem.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever includes all sinners.

What do you mean whosoever includes all sinners? It says "whosoever believeth in him." so the "whosoevers" are the ones that believe. The whosoevers are the ones that believe out of the world. Everyone in the entire world that believes will be saved. This doesn't prove Jesus' purpose on the cross. Did he purpose to save those that never believe. I'll agree that the death of the cross is sufficient for all sinners.

And:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Not even about the atonement at all.

Then there's:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So God has the desire for all to be saved. But is this His greatest desire? Again, nothing about the atonement. Take election out of the picture for the moment. Did Jesus know who were the ones that would believe? Sure. Is the purpose on the cross to save any body other than the ones that believe?
Also:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

again, nothing about the atonement. I would agree that God has A desire for all to be saved, but that's not his greatest desire. Otherwise all would be saved.


Now, I'll agree that the death of Christ is sufficient for all. We know that Christ came to die for the church

John 10:14,15 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Ephesians 5:25 " Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,"

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

We have clear references that the blood of Christ was shed for those that will believe. The sheep. The church.

We have passages like you mentioned that say that anybody that believes will be saved.

So I conclude that Christ's atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient for the elect.

Do you have any verses that say that Christ died for all sinners, including those that never believe?

I'm very minor on the doctrine of "limited atonement." First, I can't stand the title because it gives a false understanding. Second, I don't see the Bible teaching anything about Christ's purpose in regards to those that never believe, so I remain silent on it. I just say, sufficient for all, efficient for the elect.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, I need some help again.

I asked first if anybody could supply a New Testament passage in which a witnessing believer said to a lost person, Jesus loves you" or "Jesus died for you."

So far, no takers.

Now, I am looking for the scripture passage that says that I must believe Jesus died for me in order to be saved.

There are some scriptures that say "Repent," "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," "Believe that he rose from the dead," "Confess Jesus is Lord," and "Call on the name of the Lord" and you'll be saved.

I just can't find the verse that says I must believe that Jesus died for me.

Can anybody help?

 

[Tom Butler]

When the Holy Spirit began to illuminate my mind, convict me of my sin, and draw me to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, God saved me.

Believers can always say "Jesus died for me."

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[Or flesh, for sin] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

To be consistent with God so loved the world I do not see nothing wrong with using whosoever believes. With seeing the world the way it is and it hatred and mocking us I can see why people would get into Calvinism or into Arminianism. To blame God or ourselves the way it is. It is the way it is because we are not doing enough, or this is the way God wants it right now. Instead of blaming ourselves for not being used by God as a tool. Those of us who are filled by the Holy Spirit and letting Him do a work in us to do what God has prepared for us to do in advance. To love one another.

Jesus a gift that came from God, not from us. Jesus did something awesome, He condemned sin in the flesh. His word can reach right down to our very soul. To give it the two roads that His word provide, To continue down the road we are on following the flesh that leads to death or to follow Jesus the Spirit and life that leads to life eternal.

I will not give men another excuse not to come, like you are totally depraved. I know the words of Jesus can reach us just the way we are and we are without excuse. You can come, if you reject Jesus and refuse to come to Jesus to have life, you are following a murderer from the beginning, you can only blame yourself where you end up.

 

[zrs6v4]

Well, I need some help again.

I asked first if anybody could supply a New Testament passage in which a witnessing believer said to a lost person, Jesus loves you" or "Jesus died for you."

So far, no takers.

Now, I am looking for the scripture passage that says that I must believe Jesus died for me in order to be saved.

There are some scriptures that say "Repent," "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," "Believe that he rose from the dead," "Confess Jesus is Lord," and "Call on the name of the Lord" and you'll be saved.

I just can't find the verse that says I must believe that Jesus died for me.

Can anybody help?

I had the same thoughts, I was scratching my head to see the implications of the statement, "you must believe Jesus died for you" I guys in a sense you must understand the universal offer, but the call is to trust Christ not to have an intellectual assent to the idea that He died for me. Don't get me wrong, having that understanding is huge, but in light of conviction we run to Jesus and His atonement is applied to us.

I used to struggle a long time over my confusion over the word "believe". I thought I had to have some kind of thought in my mind that was doubtless and at that time ask God to forgive me. I believed Jesus died for me, but I didn't know how to get Him to apply it. I asked Him hundreds of times, but was uncertain. Eventually I drifted away because my heart was not changed at that point in my life, I just wanted to go to heaven. Years later, God worked on my heart, convicted me of my sins, and I had a heart change. I trusted in Jesus and was converted. It wasn't a mind game anymore it was a reality when I rested in Him.

 

[Rippon]

I will not give men another excuse not to come, like you are totally depraved.

I prefer the term 'radical corruption' instead of TD. Nevertheless,the great winner of souls,C.H.S. had a memorable sermon in 1858 called "Human Inability" which is quite profitable to look over.

People need to hear Bible truths. People are radically corrupt. They need to hear that.

A short snip from Mr.Spurgeon's sermon:

"When you have no hope of saving yourself,I shall have hope that God has begun to save you."