Unlimited Atonement

[Skandelon]

Respectfully, I believe that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection paid the price for every sin ever committed. I believe people are condemned because of unbelief.

Correct. They didn't fulfill the one condition of the atonement, which is faith.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

2 Thess 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.


Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen

1 Cor. 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Foreigners

Leviticus 19:34
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 10:19
And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

Exodus 12:
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
50 All the Israelites did just what the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron. 51 And on that very day the LORD brought the Israelites out of Egypt by their divisions.

Romans 2:
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Has not God provided a way by faith for all men not just the Jews from the beginning?

 

[Winman]

Really? How do you explain this verse, then?

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office."

Paul, in Romans, is writing to Jews and Gentiles.

When Paul quoted the OT verses that said, "there is none righteous, no, not one, there is none that seeketh God... He was speaking to Jews. Read for yourself.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

So, if context rules, Paul was only speaking to the Jews when he said there is none righteous, no, not one, there is none that doeth good etc...

But you Calvinists apply this to all men (and I am not disagreeing with this), but when I and others show you verses such as Isa 53:6 you say the scriptures were speaking to Jews only. It is the height of inconsistency on your part. You pick and choose which verses support your doctrine, and explain away the MANY scriptures that refutes your doctrine.

 

[quantumfaith]

If that is all he said then their would have been no disagreement, but as I clearly explained he presented a false dichotomy by suggesting that Christians must either believe in Universalism or Calvinist's view of Limited Atonement. I presented the Orthodox and biblically supported alternative held to by non-Calvinistic believers. God has provided atonement for all mankind conditioned upon their faith...a picture of love for the whole world (Jn 3:16) rather than a relatively small hand picked segment of the world.

Thank you Skandelon. !!!

 

[The Archangel]

When Paul quoted the OT verses that said, "there is none righteous, no, not one, there is none that seeketh God... He was speaking to Jews. Read for yourself.

Wrong again.

You quote Rom 2:17-24 after referencing "there is none righteous...," which is Romans 3. Furthermore, you errantly say that Paul is speaking to Jews only in Romans 3.

Look closely at Romans 3:9--What then? Are we Jews​ any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin (emphasis mine)

So, in Romans 3:10 and following, Paul is addressing both Jews and Gentiles.

The Archangel

 

[mets65]

Its saying NONE will be saved unless CHRIST saves them. They will only go on in their sin. Any that come to Christ will be saved. Christ draws believers to himself.

Everybody believes in limited atonement. Is it limited at the cross, or is it limited to the moment of salvation when the person believes?

Calvinist hold that the cross gives a pure picture of the love and power of Gods love. The atonement was a love act by Christ to save sinners, and that love act worked. Salvation is all a work of Christ.

Others believe that the atonement didn't save anyone on the cross itself, but if man wants to be save, he can allow God to apply the blood to his sins. Salvation here is God has made a way....it is up to man. Man has the say so.

It just sounds like a technicality. However you define it, it's still up to man to come to Christ. He doesn't make that decision for us.

 

[Winman]

Look closely at Romans 3:9--What then? Are we Jews​ any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin (emphasis mine)

Baloney, he is still addressing the same audience which he identified in Romans 2 as Jews.

 

[The Archangel]

Baloney, he is still addressing the same audience which he identified in Romans 2 as Jews.

Actually, you are still wrong...and persistently so. He is also addressing the Gentiles, which we know were part of the church in Rome. You don't even need the Greek to get this right.

Unfortunately, when shown your error, you decide to dig-in you heals and dig your hole deeper.

While I'm not a psychologist or anything...I think your actions may be expressing a much deeper problem.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Actually, you are still wrong...and persistently so. He is also addressing the Gentiles, which we know were part of the church in Rome. You don't even need the Greek to get this right.

Unfortunately, when shown your error, you decide to dig-in you heals and dig your hole deeper.

While I'm not a psychologist or anything...I think your actions may be expressing a much deeper problem.

The Archangel

Give me a break, look at the verse you presented as evidence to support your view;

Look closely at Romans 3:9--What then? Are we Jews​ any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin (emphasis mine)

Maybe it is you that should look closely.

 

[The Archangel]

Give me a break, look at the verse you presented as evidence to support your view;

Maybe it is you that should look closely.

The lack of perspicacity on you part in this matter is, in fact, staggering.

As I've already pointed out, in Romans 3:9, Paul says: Romans 3:9--What then? Are we Jews​ any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin

Notice: He says we have "already charged" that Jews and Greeks are under sin. If Paul has charged that Greeks (Gentiles) are "under sin" then he has already addressed Gentiles.

Not to mention that it is obvious from the entire letter that the Church of Rome consists of both Jews and Gentiles. Since this is a cold, hard fact and since Paul addresses the letter "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints," it is crystal clear that he is addressing both Jews and Gentiles. Certainly there are times when he focuses more on one group. But, the letter itself is addressed to both Jews and Greeks, therefore the Greeks are addressed.

The Archangel

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[Jarthur001]

The lack of perspicacity on you part in this matter is, in fact, staggering.


The Archangel

I will need to use that line sometime.

 

[Winman]

The lack of perspicacity on you part in this matter is, in fact, staggering.

As I've already pointed out, in Romans 3:9, Paul says: Romans 3:9--What then? Are we Jews​ any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin

Notice: He says we have "already charged" that Jews and Greeks are under sin. If Paul has charged that Greeks (Gentiles) are "under sin" then he has already addressed Gentiles.

Not to mention that it is obvious from the entire letter that the Church of Rome consists of both Jews and Gentiles. Since this is a cold, hard fact and since Paul addresses the letter "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints," it is crystal clear that he is addressing both Jews and Gentiles. Certainly there are times when he focuses more on one group. But, the letter itself is addressed to both Jews and Greeks, therefore the Greeks are addressed.

The Archangel

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I agree that Romans 3 is speaking of all men, but I also believe the many verses myself and others have presented concerning the atonement is speaking of all men.

It is you Calvinists that will say things like, "Paul was only speaking to believers" or "Isaiah was only speaking of Jews in Isa 53:6."

You Cals are the ones who constantly brag of scholarship, but it is clear to any unbiased person that you interpret scripture to agree with your doctrine, instead of developing your doctrine from rightly dividing the word.

 

[Jarthur001]

I agree that Romans 3 is speaking of all men, but I also believe the many verses myself and others have presented concerning the atonement is speaking of all men.

It is you Calvinists that will say things like, "Paul was only speaking to believers" or "Isaiah was only speaking of Jews in Isa 53:6."

You Cals are the ones who constantly brag of scholarship, but it is clear to any unbiased person that you interpret scripture to agree with your doctrine, instead of developing your doctrine from rightly dividing the word.

Hello Winman

Give me your take on this verse.

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

What is the word world mean?

 

[The Archangel]

I agree that Romans 3 is speaking of all men, but I also believe the many verses myself and others have presented concerning the atonement is speaking of all men.

It is you Calvinists that will say things like, "Paul was only speaking to believers" or "Isaiah was only speaking of Jews in Isa 53:6."

Finally, you have dropped your opposition.

You Cals are the ones who constantly brag of scholarship, but it is clear to any unbiased person that you interpret scripture to agree with your doctrine, instead of developing your doctrine from rightly dividing the word.

As if you are unbiased? That's laughable...that you are claiming yourself to be "unbiased" while the rest of us are not.

Your opinion of yourself in needlessly inflated. Pick up the phone, I think Narcissus is calling.

Actually, none are unbiased; we all bring presuppositions to the text, some more than others.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Finally, you have dropped your opposition.



As if you are unbiased? That's laughable...that you are claiming yourself to be "unbiased" while the rest of us are not.

Your opinion of yourself in needlessly inflated. Pick up the phone, I think Narcissus is calling.

Actually, none are unbiased; we all bring presuppositions to the text, some more than others.

The Archangel

I have not changed my position at all, and if you go back in this thread you would see that.

You may not think me unbiased, but if you knew me you would easily know I do not follow the crowd. I look at your arguments and consider them. I see some truth in Calvinism, but MUCH error. Nobody is 100% wrong, the Catholics teach some truth.

There is so much scripture that shows Christ died for all men, and that God wills that all men be saved that I reject Calvinism.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have not changed my position at all, and if you go back in this thread you would see that.

You may not think me unbiased, but if you knew me you would easily know I do not follow the crowd. I look at your arguments and consider them. I see some truth in Calvinism, but MUCH error. Nobody is 100% wrong, the Catholics teach some truth.

There is so much scripture that shows Christ died for all men, and that God wills that all men be saved that I reject Calvinism.

1 Cor 15

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Winman when it says ......."all be made alive."


What does "all" mean?

 

[Jarthur001]

John 12....

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Tell me what this means...DRAW ALL MEN

 

[The Archangel]

I have not changed my position at all, and if you go back in this thread you would see that.

You may not think me unbiased, but if you knew me you would easily know I do not follow the crowd. I look at your arguments and consider them. I see some truth in Calvinism, but MUCH error. Nobody is 100% wrong, the Catholics teach some truth.

There is so much scripture that shows Christ died for all men, and that God wills that all men be saved that I reject Calvinism.

I really don't think you read my post. I didn't say you changed your position. I said you dropped your opposition. Not to Calvinism, but to your persistent error that Paul is addressing only Jews in Romans 3.

The word "opposition" does, in fact, mean something quite different from "change your position."

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Winman when it says ......."all be made alive."


What does "all" mean?

This is a false form of argument, in this verse the "all" pertains to those "in Christ".

But in Isaiah 53:6 the "all" pertains to all that have gone astray, and "every one" who has turned to his own way. This means 100% of men, and says the iniquity of 100% of men has been laid on Jesus.

Just because you can find verses where "all" does not pertain to every man, does not mean in all cases the word "all" never applies to all men.

Only a simpleton would fall for an argument like that.

 

[Robert Snow]

[QUOTE=Jarthur001;1637671]Tell me what this means...DRAW ALL MEN
[/QUOTE]

You should already know what this verse means.

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

But, you asked:

What does all mean?

It means that, in Christ's death on the cross, God was reconciling the world, which includes all people, to Himself.

I know, why then isn't the entire world reconciled? Well, actually, they are. Look at the following verse:

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

They are reconciled, if, as the bible say numerous other places, they have faith and then accept the free gift.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

The thing about a gift is, you have to accept it.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,