Just what are you?

[glfredrick]

I would say that you are a Particular Baptist, of the Old Regular Babtist persuasion.

I am a Particular Baptist of the Primitive Baptist persuasion. I do consider myself a Calvinist as far as TULIP is concerned though. After that, I know little of Calvinism.

Theological categories like "Calvinist" and "Arminian" do not supplant denominational categories like "Particular Baptist," "Southern Baptist," "Primitive Baptist," (or Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.). You are not one or the other. You are both.

There is no denominational structure called "Calvinist" nor is there one called "Arminian." But, typically Methodists are "Arminian" Presbyterians are "Calvinist" and Baptists split the difference with some in both camps.

Again, there is much misunderstanding about these theological positions. They don't "define" who one is, but they do categorize one's theology. Neither do these theological positions take precedence over the Scriptures. They are "informed" by the Scriptures, which is why people hold them.

 

[kyredneck]

Theological categories like "Calvinist" and "Arminian" do not supplant denominational categories like "Particular Baptist," "Southern Baptist," "Primitive Baptist," (or Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.). You are not one or the other. You are both.

There is no denominational structure called "Calvinist" nor is there one called "Arminian." But, typically Methodists are "Arminian" Presbyterians are "Calvinist" and Baptists split the difference with some in both camps.

Again, there is much misunderstanding about these theological positions. They don't "define" who one is, but they do categorize one's theology. Neither do these theological positions take precedence over the Scriptures. They are "informed" by the Scriptures, which is why people hold them.

Ah, my, my, these doggone labels and isms. Life would be so much simpler if everyone on both sides of the fence would simply condense it down to this:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

[edit] As we all know, it's NOT the Cals that have a problem with this, it's the free willers. It's like trying to nail jello to the wall (thank you Archangel) to get the free willers to have the intestinal fortitude to take a stand and say yes, this is what I am. They simply won't do it. They don't have the guts to do it.

 

[Winman]

As we all know, it's NOT the Cals that have a problem with this, it's the free willers. It's like trying to nail jello to the wall (thank you Archangel) to get the free willers to have the intestinal fortitude to take a stand and say yes, this is what I am. They simply won't do it. They don't have the guts to do it.

I don't label myself for several reasons. First, I don't like to be labeled. Second, I have not spent a great deal of time studying what certain groups believed, but from what I have seen I do not fit completely with any of them.

I believe in free will like the Arminians, but I do not believe it possible to lose your salvation. I believe in OSAS like the Calvinists, but I do not believe in Perseverance of the Saints, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is not the same.

So, if you ever present a group whose creed agrees entirely with my personal views, I will be glad to accept their label. So far I have never seen that.

I simply think of myself as someone who believes the Bible.

 

[glfredrick]

I don't label myself for several reasons. First, I don't like to be labeled. Second, I have not spent a great deal of time studying what certain groups believed, but from what I have seen I do not fit completely with any of them.

I believe in free will like the Arminians, but I do not believe it possible to lose your salvation. I believe in OSAS like the Calvinists, but I do not believe in Perseverance of the Saints, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is not the same.

So, if you ever present a group whose creed agrees entirely with my personal views, I will be glad to accept their label. So far I have never seen that.

I simply think of myself as someone who believes the Bible.

Winman, you do fit within the theological spectrum. It is that you misunderstand that the theological positions are not "groups." One does not "belong" to a theological "group." One has a theological position.

It is this fundamental misunderstanding of theology itself that causes people to say that they don't fit within the spectrum of beliefs. Of course they do... Everyone does. But if their "position" means that they are within the theology commonly named "Arminian" (or "Calvinist") and they dislike the label, they believe that they do not fit in that position. That is just plain silliness.

Secondly, there are many mistakes about the positions themselves. For instance, John Calvin has nothing to do with the theological position of "Calvinism." Just like Martin Luther has nothing to do with the denominational position called "Lutheran." Both terms were adopted long after the persons for whom they are named had finished their course in life. In other words, John Calvin did not write the TULIP of Calvinism.

 

[mets65]

But Calvinism is still based on John Calvin. But I do understand what you're saying.

 

[Winman]

Winman, you do fit within the theological spectrum. It is that you misunderstand that the theological positions are not "groups." One does not "belong" to a theological "group." One has a theological position.

It is this fundamental misunderstanding of theology itself that causes people to say that they don't fit within the spectrum of beliefs. Of course they do... Everyone does. But if their "position" means that they are within the theology commonly named "Arminian" (or "Calvinist") and they dislike the label, they believe that they do not fit in that position. That is just plain silliness.

Secondly, there are many mistakes about the positions themselves. For instance, John Calvin has nothing to do with the theological position of "Calvinism." Just like Martin Luther has nothing to do with the denominational position called "Lutheran." Both terms were adopted long after the persons for whom they are named had finished their course in life. In other words, John Calvin did not write the TULIP of Calvinism.

Give me a break, I just explained why I do not fit as an Arminian. I explained why I do not fit as a Calvinist.

And to say John Calvin has nothing to do with the theological position of Calvinism is like saying Walt Disney had nothing to do with Mickey Mouse.

It is you whose mindset is so locked in that you cannot dare think of any possibility that has not been taught you. I do not read books by famous theologians and say, "this sounds good, this is what I will believe". I don't give a hoot what other people believe, I want to know what God says in the scriptures. If that makes me some sort of outsider or "heretic", so be it.

 

[glfredrick]

Hyper-Calvinism
God decrees some to salvation and some to reprobation
God elects the ones decreed to salvation and damns all others
Permits Fall
Create


Supralapsarianism (Calvinism to Hyper-Calvinism)
Elect some, reprobate rest
Create
Permit Fall
Provide salvation for elect
Call elect to salvation


Infralapsarianism (Historical Calvinism)
Create
Permit Fall
Elect some, pass over the rest
Provide salvation for elect
Call elect to salvation


Amyraldism
Create
Permit Fall
Provide salvation sufficient for all
Elect some, pass over rest
Call elect to salvation


Arminianism
Create
Permit Fall
Provide salvation for all
Call all to salvation
Elect those who believe (and not those who will fall away)


Semi-Pelagianism
Create
Permit Fall
Provide atonement for those who respond
God elects those who respond and who do not fall away


Pelagianism
Create
Fall was the choice of man
Man decides his own fate
Christ is a good example
Man can chose Christ as an example and work toward pleasing God
God chooses those most pleasing who do not fall away

 

[glfredrick]

Give me a break, I just explained why I do not fit as an Arminian. I explained why I do not fit as a Calvinist.

And to say John Calvin has nothing to do with the theological position of Calvinism is like saying Walt Disney had nothing to do with Mickey Mouse.

It is you whose mindset is so locked in that you cannot dare think of any possibility that has not been taught you. I do not read books by famous theologians and say, "this sounds good, this is what I will believe". I don't give a hoot what other people believe, I want to know what God says in the scriptures. If that makes me some sort of outsider or "heretic", so be it.

Perhaps you SHOULD read some of those books instead of the web sites you frequent. You are being mislead by false information, which is a violation of the 9th Commandment.

You are wrong... The TULIP of "Calvinism" was a response of the Synod of Dort to the 5 points of Arminianism. It was long after Calvin was dead.

That is not to say that the positions of Calvinism were not also those of John Calvin, they were, just as they were those of Augustine and Paul, because they can be found in the Scriptures. But "Calvinism" as commonly expressed is not directly from the pen of John Calvin. Sorry to shoot down one of your fantasies.

 

[mets65]

Are labels necessary? I feel like we wear them as some sort of badge of honor. I think more time is spent trying to define ourselves. We are just like the secular world in this sort of behavior. The secular world demands labels for everything and we are doing the same thing.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Are labels necessary? I feel like we wear them as some sort of badge of honor. I think more time is spent trying to define ourselves. We are just like the secular world in this sort of behavior. The secular world demands labels for everything and we are doing the same thing.

Hmm, the Bible is full of labels, so it certainly is not 'secular' to use them.

 

[mets65]

No I'm not saying it's secular to use them, just that the secular world uses them in a way that can be demeaning to people at times.

 

[Jerome]

John Calvin has nothing to do with the theological position of "Calvinism." Just like Martin Luther has nothing to do with the denominational position called "Lutheran." Both terms were adopted long after the persons for whom they are named had finished their course in life.

So, when was Lutheran first used?
And when was Calvinist first used?

 

[glfredrick]

So, when was Lutheran first used?
And when was Calvinist first used?

I'm not sure when "Calvinist" was first used. The TULIP was formulated during the Synod of Dort in 1618–1619. It is doubtful whether Calvin himself would have ratified all 5 statements of the TULIP himself. He was never explicit on limited atonement. Calvin died in 1564.

Lutheran was a term of derision first used against Luther by Johann Eck during the Leipzig Debate in July 1519. Luther did not adopt the name for his denomination. Luther preferred the term "Evangelical" for his new work. In 1597, theologians first adopted the use of the term Lutheran. Luther died in 1546.

 

[BobinKy]

So, when was Lutheran first used?
And when was Calvinist first used?

Jerome--excellent questions! (I just can't seem to stay away.)

The Oxford English Dictionary reports the following historical usages.

Calvinian

A. adj. Of, belonging to, or following the doctrine of Calvin. (See CALVINISM.)

1566 T. STAPLETON Ret. Untr. Jewell Pref., The Lutheran and Caluinian Religion. 1688 Bp. OF OXFORD Reasons Abrog. Test 54 Patron of the Calvinian Faction. 1862 Lit. Churchman 446 The Calvinian development of St. Augustin's idea of predestination was logically true.​

B. sb. = CALVINIST. Obs.

1582 MUNDAY Eng. Rom. Life in Harl. Misc. (1809) II. 206 He curseth all Caluenians, Lutherians, Zwinglians. 1691 WOOD Ath. Oxon. I. /193 Laurence Humphrey [was] . . much of the Calvinian both in doctrine and discipline.​

† Calvinish, a. Obs. rare. = CALVINISTIC

1637 Declar. Pfaltzgrave's Faith 30 A Calvinish heresie.​

Calvinism

The doctrines of John Calvin the Protestant Reformer (1509-1564), particularly his theological doctrines on grace, in which Calvinsim is opposed to ARMINIANISM. b. Adherence to these doctrines.

(The particular doctrines of theological Calvinism are contained in the so-called 'five points', viz. (1) Particular election. (2) Particular redemption. (3) Moral inability in a fallen state. (4) Irresistible grace. (5) Final perseverance.)

1570 LEVINS Manip. 146 Caluynisme, caluinismus. 1650 R. STAPYLTON Strada's Low-C. Warres III. 65 She was jealous lest Calvinisme, which then infected France, might be caught by their neighbours of Haynolt. 1655 L'ESTRANGE Chas. I, 127 The Doctrine of St. Augustine; which they who understand it not, call Calvinisme. 1863 FROUDE Hist. Eng. VII, 367 Thus spoke Calvinism, the creed of republics, in its first hard form.​

fig. 1863 Denise I, 126 The destruction, the waste in Nature; the plants that bud and never bring forth fruit . . the Calvinism of Nature, things predestined to destruction!​

Calvinist

An adherent of Calvinism.

1579 Fulke Heskins' Parl. 577 The seconde and thirde, he sayeth are denyed by the Caluenistes. 1673 MILTON True Relig. 7 The Calvinist is taxt with Predestination, and to make God the Author of sin. 1768 TUCKER Lt. Nat. I. 545 No Arminian will doubt a man being debarred of his liberty by shutting him up in a gaol; nor will the most rigid Calvinist deny, that upon being let loose he is at liberty to go which way he pleases. 1850 R. WILBERFORCE Holy Bapt. 253 Those who compiled the Service-Books of the Church of England were not Calvinists.

attrib. 1876 BANCROFT Hist. U. S. VI. Index 510 Union of Calvinist colonies proposed.​

Calvinistic

Of or belonging to Calvinism, following the doctrines of Calvin. Calvinistic Methodists: a section of the Methodists who follow the Calvinistic opinions of Whitfield, as distinguished from the Arminian opinions of Wesley; their chief seat is in Wales.

1820 SCOTT Abbot XIV. The cloak and band of the Calvinistic divine. 1850 R. WILBERFORCE Holy Bapt. 145 The Calvinistic doctrines of Election, Predestination, and Perseverance are incompatible with . . Baptismal Regeneration.​

Calvinisticate

v. To make Calvinistic.

1834-43 SOUTHEY Doctor xlvi, If the old English worthy . . had been Calvinisticated till the milk of human kindness with which his heart was always ready to overflow had turned sour.​

...Bob

P.S. I will try to do a similar post for Arminian.

 

[Winman]

It is ridiculous to say Calvin has nothing to do with Calvinism. Calvin's writings are the foundation of Calvinism. I am completely aware that Calvin was influenced by others, especially Augustine. I would completely disagree that Augustine's writings were scriptural whatsoever, he introduced much error that continues to this day.

I also know that TULIP was developed after Calvin's death. Nevertheless, his theories were the foundation of this system. Since then Calvinism has been influenced by many other scholars who are often quoted here. But there is no one position all Calvinists hold to, nor ever was. That is why it is a false argument to accuse non-Cals of not understanding or misrepresenting your view, there is no one view.

 

[The Archangel]

It is ridiculous to say Calvin has nothing to do with Calvinism. Calvin's writings are the foundation of Calvinism. I am completely aware that Calvin was influenced by others, especially Augustine. I would completely disagree that Augustine's writings were scriptural whatsoever, he introduced much error that continues to this day.

I also know that TULIP was developed after Calvin's death. Nevertheless, his theories were the foundation of this system. Since then Calvinism has been influenced by many other scholars who are often quoted here. But there is no one position all Calvinists hold to, nor ever was. That is why it is a false argument to accuse non-Cals of not understanding or misrepresenting your view, there is no one view.

A sad demonstration of profound ignorance.

The Archangel

 

[Gina B]

Calvinist.

quantumfaith, nice tagline. Just noticed the Bierce quote and took a moment to smile in a wry type manner...LOL

 

[Winman]

A sad demonstration of profound ignorance.

The Archangel

You'll get over it, I DID.

 

[quantumfaith]

Calvinist.

quantumfaith, nice tagline. Just noticed the Bierce quote and took a moment to smile in a wry type manner...LOL

I love the witty, intelligent sarcasm of Bierce.

 

[BobinKy]

The Oxford English Dictionary has this to say about Arminian and Arminian-related entries.

Arminian

A. adj. Of, belonging to, or following the doctrine of, James Arminius or Harmensen, a Dutch Protestant theologian, who put forth views opposed to those of Calvin, especially on Predestination. Arminius died in 1609; in 1618-19 his doctrines were condemned by the Synod of Dort; but they spread rapidly, and were embraced, in whole or part, by large sections of the Reformed Churches.

1618 tr. Barnevelds Apol. H, The point in question is not concerning the Arminian Religion, but Romish Poperie. 1674 HICKMAN Hist. Quinquart. 133 Before Bishop Laud ruled . . those who embraced the Opinions since called Arminian, were indeed out of the way to preferment. 1853 MARSDEN Early Puritans 99 The Calvinistic and Arminian controversy.​

B. sb. An adherent of the doctrine of Arminius.

1618 tr. Barnevelds Apol. D, Winbergen is principall of the Perfectists, and you of the Arminians. 1673 MILTON True Relig. 7 The Arminian . . is condemn'd for setting up free will against free grace. c 1760 WESLEY Wks. 1872 X. 360 The Arminians believe, it [predestination] is conditional; the Calvinists, that it is absolute. 1834 Penny Cycl. II. 365 The Wesleyan Methodists call themselves Arminians, and their Magazine appeared formerly under the title of the Arminian Magazine.​

† Arminianish, a. Obs. rare. = ARMINIAN.

1700 in Somers Tracts V. 17 They have . . suffered to be printed all Arminianish, popish, vain books.​

Arminianism

Arminian doctrines. or adherence to them.

1618 tr. Barnevelds Apol. Ded. A iij, Already wholy bent to Arminianisme. 1627 Let. fr. Jesuit in Rushw. Hist. Coll. (1659) I. 475 That Soveraign Drug Arminianism, which we hope will purge the Protestants from their Heresie. 1674 HICKMAN Hist. Quinquart. 227 He .. confirmed himself in his debauchedness, by his Arminianism. 1822 SYD. SMITH Wks. 1867 II. 5 The Articles of Religion are older than Arminianism, eo nomine.​

Arminianize

a. trans. To make Arminian. b. intr. To teach Arminianism. Arminianized, -izing, Arminianizer, one who teaches or promotes Arminianism.

1637 GILLESPIE Eng. Pop. Cerem. Ep. A iij b, Many . . who are either Popish and Arminianized . . or silly ignorants. 1674 HICKMAN Hist. Quinquart. Some of our Arminianizing English Writers. 1692 Christ Exalted § 106 Antisozzo leans on the contrary side, and Arminianizeth. 1698 Ibid. Ded A iij, This will not go down with Arminianizers. 1698 CLARK Script. Justif. Introd. B, I have no Arminianizing Principles or Design.​