Is there a difference?

[GBC Pastor]

I have been working on a sermon on the Lord's Prayer for our Day of Prayer service this Sunday. A thought occured to me as I have been reading this passage in Matthew the last few days. The verse that got me to thinking was Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (NKJV)

Does this not at least suggest that a distinction is being made between God's will in heaven vs. His will on the earth? If God's will is absolutely always fulfilled as many here claim then wouldn't Jesus have told us to simply pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done."?

 

[Jarthur001]

I have been working on a sermon on the Lord's Prayer for our Day of Prayer service this Sunday. A thought occured to me as I have been reading this passage in Matthew the last few days. The verse that got me to thinking was Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (NKJV)

Does this not at least suggest that a distinction is being made between God's will in heaven vs. His will on the earth? If God's will is absolutely always fulfilled as many here claim then wouldn't Jesus have told us to simply pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done."?

Some call this the "already" and "not yet" Kingdom. Or Almost, not yet Kingdom.
LINK

This theology was developed by Vos which can be downloaded at the link below

http://www.biblicaltheology.org/eapcs.pdf

 

[Cypress]

I have been working on a sermon on the Lord's Prayer for our Day of Prayer service this Sunday. A thought occured to me as I have been reading this passage in Matthew the last few days. The verse that got me to thinking was Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (NKJV)

Does this not at least suggest that a distinction is being made between God's will in heaven vs. His will on the earth? If God's will is absolutely always fulfilled as many here claim then wouldn't Jesus have told us to simply pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done."?

He might not have prayed at all. A common invitation was follow me, so I am sure He meant it!:thumbs:

 

[jaigner]

Some call this the "already" and "not yet" Kingdom. Or Almost, not yet Kingdom.

Boom! Inaugurated eschatology! One of my favorite theological realities.

 

[Luke2427]

I have been working on a sermon on the Lord's Prayer for our Day of Prayer service this Sunday. A thought occured to me as I have been reading this passage in Matthew the last few days. The verse that got me to thinking was Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (NKJV)

Does this not at least suggest that a distinction is being made between God's will in heaven vs. His will on the earth? If God's will is absolutely always fulfilled as many here claim then wouldn't Jesus have told us to simply pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done."?

I give you kudos!

It is so grand to hear a fresh argument- and a good one, imo.

Thanks! (really- it makes our lunch date still looming so much more appealing)

There is a difference in the will of God taking place on earth and the will of God taking place in heaven.

I think I have made what I am about to say clear in the past but I will say it again here.

God hates evil. In order, however, for God to show his grace, evil must exist (see Ephesians 1:7) and to show his wrath as well.

So God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

So God, though he is willing ultimately for evil to exist right now, he is enduring it. Evil is temporary. It is a necessary evil and God will be glad to eradicate it completely one day. But for now it serves his purposes.

There is no evil in heaven. And we are to pray for the day that God eradicates evil from the earth that she might be just like heaven.

God's ultimate will is for evil not to exist. God's temporal will is for it to exist now to serve his purposes.

We are to pray that God's ultimate will will be done.

God is willing to be inconvenienced for the time being that the greater eternal good might come to pass. We pray for that day when it does.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

I give you kudos!

It is so grand to hear a fresh argument- and a good one, imo.

Thanks! (really- it makes our lunch date still looming so much more appealing)

There is a difference in the will of God taking place on earth and the will of God taking place in heaven.

I think I have made what I am about to say clear in the past but I will say it again here.

God hates evil. In order, however, for God to show his grace, evil must exist (see Ephesians 1:7) and to show his wrath as well.

So God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

So God, though he is willing ultimately for evil to exist right now, he is enduring it. Evil is temporary. It is a necessary evil and God will be glad to eradicate it completely one day. But for now it serves his purposes.

There is no evil in heaven. And we are to pray for the day that God eradicates evil from the earth that she might be just like heaven.

God's ultimate will is for evil not to exist. God's temporal will is for it to exist now to serve his purposes.

We are to pray that God's ultimate will will be done.

God is willing to be inconvenienced for the time being that the greater eternal good might come to pass. We pray for that day when it does.

This truth is pointed out by Paul in Romans 11:28-36

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

 

[psalms109:31]

This truth is pointed out by Paul in Romans 11:28-36

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Romans 11:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[Or and so] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[Or will be] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34]

I love the verses you gave, they are beautiful, in the right perspective, not in a perspective of the peddle picking God, I love them, I love them not ;Belief.

The full amount of Israel is the sands of the seashore. Praise God. The verses before that shows who the elect are.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

See Israel was to enter into salvation, but did not because of unbelief, cut out, but God kept these.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Then He included Gentiles, when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believe.

If men can be cut out for unbelief and included for belief. That the elect is Believers the meek and humble who trust in the Lord, who followed their for-fathers like Abraham, they believe God and was credited righteousness.

People want to believe they are randomly picked elected before the foundation, I see believers who trust in the Lord. God has them written in the Lambs book of life because He knows who they are or He wouldn't be God.

Those who trust in the Lord, this call and those who come is irrevocable. When you trust in the Lord, it is Him that saves you.

All men are in disobedience to the Law even the Jews who the Law was given to, so God can show mercy to all who trust in His Son.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have been working on a sermon on the Lord's Prayer for our Day of Prayer service this Sunday. A thought occured to me as I have been reading this passage in Matthew the last few days. The verse that got me to thinking was Matthew 6:10, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (NKJV)

Does this not at least suggest that a distinction is being made between God's will in heaven vs. His will on the earth? If God's will is absolutely always fulfilled as many here claim then wouldn't Jesus have told us to simply pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done."?

Very similarly, Jesus prayed in the Garden, that if possible to "remove this cup" but more importantly that the "Father's will be done".

 

[quantumfaith]

Romans 11:
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[Or and so] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[Or will be] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34]

I love the verses you gave, they are beautiful, in the right perspective, not in a perspective of the peddle picking God, I love them, I love them not ;Belief.

The full amount of Israel is the sands of the seashore. Praise God. The verses before that shows who the elect are.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

See Israel was to enter into salvation, but did not because of unbelief, cut out, but God kept these.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Then He included Gentiles, when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believe.

If men can be cut out for unbelief and included for belief. That the elect is Believers the meek and humble who trust in the Lord, who followed their for-fathers like Abraham, they believe God and was credited righteousness.

People want to believe they are randomly picked elected before the foundation, I see believers who trust in the Lord. God has them written in the Lambs book of life because He knows who they are or He wouldn't be God.

Those who trust in the Lord, this call and those who come is irrevocable. When you trust in the Lord, it is Him that saves you.

All men are in disobedience to the Law even the Jews who the Law was given to, so God can show mercy to all who trust in His Son.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[GBC Pastor]

God's ultimate will is for evil not to exist. God's temporal will is for it to exist now to serve his purposes.

We are to pray that God's ultimate will will be done.

It seems to me that you have to read into the passage to arrive at temporal vs. ultimate will. It seems to me that Jesus' command to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven points to the free agency of man. It suggests to me that God's will is not always done on earth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Favorite verse

Quantumfaith

One of my favorite verse like John 15:15 in hard question and scripture that scares me at first is.

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

 

[Luke2427]

It seems to me that you have to read into the passage to arrive at temporal vs. ultimate will. It seems to me that Jesus' command to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven points to the free agency of man. It suggests to me that God's will is not always done on earth.

I will grant you that if you took that verse in the Lord's Prayer by itself that is how it seems.

But we know that doing that with any text is a fast track to heresy, don't we?

The fact of the matter is that the Lord's Prayer has to be consist with Romans 11:36 and Ephesians 1:5 and these verses that explicitly state God is sovereign and gets his will always:

Ex 4:11
Deut 32:39
2 Chr 20:6
Ps 103:19
Ps 115:3
Ps 135:6
Isa 45:5-7
Isa 46:10
Dan 4:35
Luke 1:37
Acts 4:27-28
Acts 17:26
Rev 17:17

Your interpretation does not allow that. Mine does.

 

[Skandelon]

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, just to ask if you believe this is even possible and if not, why?

Is it possible that God created a world where He gave others the ability to rule and make first cause choices so that His will or desire is not always what is done, but where He being God is powerful, omniscient, and wise enough to still accomplish His ultimate purposes despite those things that are done against His will?

 

[Luke2427]

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, just to ask if you believe this is even possible and if not, why?

Is it possible that God created a world where He gave others the ability to rule and make first cause choices so that His will or desire is not always what is done, but where He being God is powerful, omniscient, and wise enough to still accomplish His ultimate purposes despite those things that are done against His will?

No. It is not.

No more than it is possible to have dry liquid water.

It is no more possible than it is for God to make a rock so big that he cannot lift it.

It is no more possible than it is to have multiple all powerful beings.

It is no more possible than it is to have multiple exhaustively sovereign brings.

It is not possible.

Why is it so hard for you to accept the truth of Scripture that of God and through God and to God are all things?

 

[GBC Pastor]

I will grant you that if you took that verse in the Lord's Prayer by itself that is how it seems.

But we know that doing that with any text is a fast track to heresy, don't we?

The fact of the matter is that the Lord's Prayer has to be consist with Romans 11:36 and Ephesians 1:5 and these verses that explicitly state God is sovereign and gets his will always:

Well let me see if I can get off the fast track to heresy. How about another passage? Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Seems a pretty clear passage where the expressed will of our Lord was not accomplished on earth.

And yes Skandelon. I think it is quite possible that God has created a world very similar to what you describe.

 

[Luke2427]

Well let me see if I can get off the fast track to heresy. How about another passage? Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Seems a pretty clear passage where the expressed will of our Lord was not accomplished on earth.

And yes Skandelon. I think it is quite possible that God has created a world very similar to what you describe.

You're doing very well, imo.

This is a difficult verse for those of the Reformed persuasion.

But this verse has to fall in line with the rest of the Scriptures. It does.

Christ is about to turn his back on the Jews nationally and turn to the Gentile nations. Jerusalem is the capital of the Jews.

Christ laments their stubbornness which cost them their standing with their God. Jesus has just pronounced his final woes upon the leaders of Judaism. And he wraps it up with this heart wrenching declaration. I would have kept you, Jerusalem. I would have blessed you at the last as I did at the first. But you would not.

Notice he speaks to a city not people. The idea there is national rather than soteriological.

Because remember, Christ would indeed continue to gather under his wings individuals out of Jerusalem. Just a couple months later he would save three thousand in Jerusalem in a day. But Acts 8, John MacArthur estimates that about 20,000 had become Christians in Jerusalem- a near QUARTER of the whole city population!

So this verse is plainly speaking nationally, not soteriologically.

 

[GBC Pastor]

So this verse is plainly speaking nationally, not soteriologically.

How often I wanted to gather your children together

Who are the children Jesus is referring to? Are these not people?

 

[Luke2427]

Who are the children Jesus is referring to? Are these not people?

Remember that Jesus does indeed gather many of Jerusalem's literal children under his wings in just a few months.

Children refer to future generations of Israel. The nation would soon experience hell and would do so for centuries to come.

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, just to ask if you believe this is even possible and if not, why?

Is it possible that God created a world where He gave others the ability to rule and make first cause choices so that His will or desire is not always what is done, but where He being God is powerful, omniscient, and wise enough to still accomplish His ultimate purposes despite those things that are done against His will?

Skandelon, is this not compatibilism?

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, just to ask if you believe this is even possible and if not, why?

Is it possible that God created a world where He gave others the ability to rule and make first cause choices so that His will or desire is not always what is done, but where He being God is powerful, omniscient, and wise enough to still accomplish His ultimate purposes despite those things that are done against His will?

And BTW, I think it a perfectly viable premise.