Partial Rapture

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Who IS the Bride ?

The portion of The Church that has not commited adultery against her BrideGroom Jesus Christ.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The portion of The Church that has not commited adultery against her BrideGroom Jesus Christ.

Please define this adultery with Scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

With the current conversation, I don't have time to gather all those passages, but I'll state (in crash course) what every well read Christian should be familiar with and anyone call look them up.

The heavenly hosts, all of them, were created. Nothing was created that Jehovah/Jesus didn't create. Man was the only creation that Jehovah "breathed into the breath of life, and man "became" a living soul." His breath, and in God's image is the reason we are triune. Nothing else is, including the heavenly host (of which the angels are a part). "Angels" were seen in both the Old and New Testaments. They appeared as men, having a physicality even in this world even though we know it to be different than our own. They were also seen with Jehovah and appeared as he did. We can safely assume they were patterned after Jehovah in his creation of them. The "sons of God" (direct creation of)(angels) left heaven and mated with the daughters of men, (Some don't believe this but that is what the scripture says.) and produced offspring. More than once, probably several times. (Not having a spirit, only a physicality, [spiritual body] and life [a soul], they have no "spirit" to pass on to an offspring. That's why the offspring can't be resurrected after death. They have no spirit to return to the body.)

Isaiah 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.



Of Course. Everything stated is accurate. Your just not looking at the whole passage.

Ephesians 5:22-27
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church (the whole Church, every member of it) and he is the savior of the body. (the whole Church is saved)

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

"subject", in authority under, to be submissive to. It says nothing of her "being" submissive. In fact, she has to be told to submit, it doesn't come natural. We are all inherently disobedient, even after salvation.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Us gents have to be told to love our wives, even as Christ loved the Church, (and gave himself for it. Absolutely.) God/Jesus shouldn’t have to tell us to love our wives, isn’t that why we married them. But again, man (mankind) is inherently disobedient (and a rascal, to put it mildly) by nature.

26 That he "might" sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he "might" present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it "should" be holy and without blemish.

"Might", not will or shall sanctify and cleanse it.
"Might", not will or shall present it to himself.
But that it "should" be holy and without blemish.

There are no absolutes used in the description of Jesus' receiving of the entire Church.

Unfortunately, not all of the Church is without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing. Some, much, or even (I believe from my observation and study) most of the Church has defiled itself with the things of this world.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

I thought we were already “received” by the Lord. We’re saved, we have the Spirit living in us, we’re part of the church which is the body of Christ. Is there no consequences for NOT following the directives of the BrideGroom.

EXAMPLE
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

(Willful disobedience through the sin of sexual lust, yealding to the temptations of the flesh… the penalty?)

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(A picture of the Rapture.)

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The guilty party will be handed over to Satan by being left behind at the time of the Rapture, and will be killed by the powers that be at the hand of the anti-christ during the great tribulation, so that his spirit may be saved inside the Day of The Lord.

Or is there another time in history when this event can be placed.

No disrespect but you are twisting scripture to fit your view. You are dogmatically saying that certain passages mean something that you cannot possibly prove. You are then taking those passages in which you have formed a personal belief about and added a great deal of speculation and are calling it as if it was true. That is exactly how every cult in the world gets started.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

No disrespect but you are twisting scripture to fit your view. You are dogmatically saying that certain passages mean something that you cannot possibly prove. You are then taking those passages in which you have formed a personal belief about and added a great deal of speculation and are calling it as if it was true. That is exactly how every cult in the world gets started.

Thank you for your opinion but I'm just calling it like I see it. Most of my "comments" aren't comments, but bold and underline of the scripture itself. Disagree if you wish, (as I know you and most of the Church will till "the day"), but this is what the scripture has taught me. There are a hord of other passages.

And I didn't have "a view" until I couldn't reconcile Jesus' warning to the Church through his disciples, and the same appearing in the letters to the churches of Paul and John "the recorder of Revelation" with the "doctrine" that I had been taught since,,, birth?

I was raised Southern Baptist. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist Preacher for 47 years. I didn't get a chance to share or discuss these teachings with him before the Lord called him home. Sure wish I could have.

Grace, mercy and peace to you and yours.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Please define this adultery with Scripture.

Adultery is anything you willfully let hinder your fellowship with your BrideGroom.

The Lord uses several illustrations by example to define the infraction. Adultery specifically is going after other gods besides the one true God. Israel was guilty of this several times, as recorded in the Old Testament. As a result, she was given a writing of divorcement from Jehovah. Israel was literally divorced by God's Son. She is our example.

Now,, we don't "worship" other god's today as Israel did in the past. But an idol is an idol. Anything that comes between us and God becomes an idol in our life. If you'd "rather" (in your heart, whether you do it or not) be fishing, boating, watching sports, racing, traveling,,, (you get the idea),,, that "thing" becomes an idol to you. You have put it before God and worshiping him. Your "fellowship" is hindered.

Your relation does not change, you are still and always will be a child of God, but you become a disobedient child by putting "the things of this world" (the flesh) before the creator and our Lord and Savior.

Willful sin is another hindrance.

Romans 6:12-13
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (be separated in fellowship, therefore remove yourself from The Bride): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (be joined in fellowship).

Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

The church at Galatia had been called into the fellowship of Christ, and had accepted him as Lord and Savior, but then had allowed itself to be seduced by false teachings. Some of these false teaching were leading them into fulfilling the lust of the flesh, (as Thyatira in the letters to the seven Churches of Revelation). They were no longer "walking in the Spirit".

Galatians 5:16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (Not unbelief. They were no longer in "fellowship" with their BrideGroom, within the "relationship" they had acquired.)

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

This conversation seems to be winding down. Unfortunate. I really enjoy discussing this subject. Unless anyone has another question or two, I will close with this post and check back a few times a week for any remnants anyone may bring up. I will make no comments directly, only bolds and underlines within the passages. You can make your own re-enterpretations.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their "deeds".

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, "that" ye may be accounted worthy to "escape" all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[freeatlast]

This conversation seems to be winding down. Unfortunate. I really enjoy discussing this subject. Unless anyone has another question or two, I will close with this post and check back a few times a week for any remnants anyone may bring up. I will make no comments directly, only bolds and underlines within the passages. You can make your own re-enterpretations.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their "deeds".

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, "that" ye may be accounted worthy to "escape" all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Great quotes, but they have nothing to do with a partial rapture.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Great quotes, but they have nothing to do with a partial rapture.

Then, what is the escape of Luke 21:36, spoken of by Jesus after giving a detailed description of the great tribulation to four of his twelve disciples? Why the warning, and from what?

And Revelation uses the term by name. Are we to ignore that?

 

[freeatlast]

Then, what is the escape of Luke 21:36, spoken of by Jesus after giving a detailed description of the great tribulation to four of his twelve disciples? Why the warning, and from what?

And Revelation uses the term by name. Are we to ignore that?

[SIZE=+0]The Luke passage as well as the Rev passage are both speaking about getting saved. That alone is what makes us worthy. The scriptures say this;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]No amount of good works makes us worthy;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Even our best is like a filthy rag. Only the work of Christ in us satisfies God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]We are spotless because of what the Lord has done, not because of what we do. Only the blood of Christ washes us, not good deeds.[/SIZE]

All the dead in Christ will be raised, those alive will be changed both going with the Lord, every believer who dies before the rapture is one of those.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Great quotes, but they have nothing to do with a partial rapture.

And about Revelation. One thing I would like to point out is the acceptance by Pre-Tribbers of an interpretation over the clear reading of plain text.

Traditional Southern Baptist Pre-Tribulationist, which at the close of the 20th century made up the majority opinion of the Evangelical world, (and other denominations sharing the same beliefs) believe Jesus is coming back before the Great Tribulation, (which is correct) and he is taking the entire Church, lock, stock and barrel, back to heaven with him regardless of their degree of individual disobedience. (Regrettably, I’m afraid not).

The passage most often used by Pre-Tribulationists is Rev. 3:10.

Revelation 3:10
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This verse, directed to the church of Philadelphia inside the letters to the seven churches of Revelation, makes mention of an hour of temptation, which will come upon the entire world as a whole. Pre-Tribulationists correctly reason that there will only be one time in history when this will be true, The Great Tribulation Period, based on Jeremiah 30:7 and Matthew 24:21, to name just two.

For them this passage teaches that Jesus, through the open door of verse six, will remove the Bride from this world (which for them means the entire Church) through the process of the Rapture, effectively “keeping thee from” (Raptured) “the hour of temptation” (The Great Tribulation).

This is very close to the truth. I agree with the majority of this doctrine as it is portrayed. However, it needs be pointed out, it must be interpreted as such.

1. This verse does not mention The Great Tribulation by name.

2. It does not contain a direct reference to the process of being “caught up“, but an indirect reference that must be deduced. (Interpreted.)

3. No mention of the Bride is made in any direct form.

However correct this teaching to be, it is derived through the interpretation of the reader, not stated by the scripture itself.

My objection to the Church is how it can accept an indirect reference (hour of temptation) and establish doctrine upon it, however correct that doctrine to be, while at the same time ignoring a direct reference to that time or event completely (Great Tribulation). The direct reference in question in this case is clearly acknowledged by the text contained in an adjacent letter addressed to the church of Thyatira.

If one wishes to study what the Word of God has to say concerning the Great Tribulation, one will have to study, at the very least, the three passages mentioning the Great Tribulation by name. Can we agree on this?

The three references are as follows.

1. Jesus himself teaching of it in Matthew 24:21.

2. Jesus himself making point of it in Revelation 2:22.

3. One of the “elders” explaining to John who is to come out of it in Revelation 7:14.

To overlook or ignore any one of these passages is to deny the teachings they contain. They speak for themselves, as does the entirety of God’s Holy Word.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

This is the verse of scripture my friend could not use as a Pre-Tribulation passage although it teaches conclusively that there will be an event which will result in someone avoiding the Great Tribulation Period. Someone is not going into Great Tribulation.

If the teaching of an avoidance of that time is not a confirmation of Jesus’ description of an escape of it, I don’t know what is. This would only agree with the teaching of a “caught up” event which takes place prior to the Great Tribulation, and that is the current definition of the Rapture. Therefore, found in these passages is the scriptural documentation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

At the same time however, the entrance into the Great Tribulation is documented by the same passage through a connecting phrase making entrance into that terrible time by the same group being addressed undeniable.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their "deeds".

Only the presence of the condition makes escape from The Great Tribulation a possibility, it is not a forgone conclusion as traditional Pre-Tribulationists have convinced each other to believe.

Both teachings exist simultaneously in the same passage with the use of the connecting phrase forever linking them together. I do not understand how the Church has missed the presence of them in the scripture.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

(As for your comment) Quote / The Luke passage as well as the Rev passage are both speaking about getting saved. That alone is what makes us worthy. / UnQuote.

The seven letters to the churches was written to The Church, believers. And in the Revelation 2:22 passage, the lost can not commit adultery against Christ. They are not a part of the Church, let alone the Bride. The world's sin is unbelief (exampled by the sin of fornication, as is Jezebel's).

 

[freeatlast]

And about Revelation. One thing I would like to point out is the acceptance by Pre-Tribbers of an interpretation over the clear reading of plain text.

Traditional Southern Baptist Pre-Tribulationist, which at the close of the 20th century made up the majority opinion of the Evangelical world, (and other denominations sharing the same beliefs) believe Jesus is coming back before the Great Tribulation, (which is correct) and he is taking the entire Church, lock, stock and barrel, back to heaven with him regardless of their degree of individual disobedience. (Regrettably, I’m afraid not).

The passage most often used by Pre-Tribulationists is Rev. 3:10.

Revelation 3:10
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This verse, directed to the church of Philadelphia inside the letters to the seven churches of Revelation, makes mention of an hour of temptation, which will come upon the entire world as a whole. Pre-Tribulationists correctly reason that there will only be one time in history when this will be true, The Great Tribulation Period, based on Jeremiah 30:7 and Matthew 24:21, to name just two.

For them this passage teaches that Jesus, through the open door of verse six, will remove the Bride from this world (which for them means the entire Church) through the process of the Rapture, effectively “keeping thee from” (Raptured) “the hour of temptation” (The Great Tribulation).

This is very close to the truth. I agree with the majority of this doctrine as it is portrayed. However, it needs be pointed out, it must be interpreted as such.

1. This verse does not mention The Great Tribulation by name.

2. It does not contain a direct reference to the process of being “caught up“, but an indirect reference that must be deduced. (Interpreted.)

3. No mention of the Bride is made in any direct form.

However correct this teaching to be, it is derived through the interpretation of the reader, not stated by the scripture itself.

My objection to the Church is how it can accept an indirect reference (hour of temptation) and establish doctrine upon it, however correct that doctrine to be, while at the same time ignoring a direct reference to that time or event completely (Great Tribulation). The direct reference in question in this case is clearly acknowledged by the text contained in an adjacent letter addressed to the church of Thyatira.

If one wishes to study what the Word of God has to say concerning the Great Tribulation, one will have to study, at the very least, the three passages mentioning the Great Tribulation by name. Can we agree on this?

The three references are as follows.

1. Jesus himself teaching of it in Matthew 24:21.

2. Jesus himself making point of it in Revelation 2:22.

3. One of the “elders” explaining to John who is to come out of it in Revelation 7:14.

To overlook or ignore any one of these passages is to deny the teachings they contain. They speak for themselves, as does the entirety of God’s Holy Word.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

This is the verse of scripture my friend could not use as a Pre-Tribulation passage although it teaches conclusively that there will be an event which will result in someone avoiding the Great Tribulation Period. Someone is not going into Great Tribulation.

If the teaching of an avoidance of that time is not a confirmation of Jesus’ description of an escape of it, I don’t know what is. This would only agree with the teaching of a “caught up” event which takes place prior to the Great Tribulation, and that is the current definition of the Rapture. Therefore, found in these passages is the scriptural documentation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

At the same time however, the entrance into the Great Tribulation is documented by the same passage through a connecting phrase making entrance into that terrible time by the same group being addressed undeniable.

Revelation 2:22
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their "deeds".

Only the presence of the condition makes escape from The Great Tribulation a possibility, it is not a forgone conclusion as traditional Pre-Tribulationists have convinced each other to believe.

Both teachings exist simultaneously in the same passage with the use of the connecting phrase forever linking them together. I do not understand how the Church has missed the presence of them in the scripture.

The passage in the Rev you are using is speaking to a church that is not saved. it is not speaking to those who have been saved. The saved do not practice sin.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you

There is no partial rapture.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The passage in the Rev you are using is speaking to a church that is not saved. it is not speaking to those who have been saved. The saved do not practice sin.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you

There is no partial rapture.

I'm glad you brought the subject of "born of God" up again, as I was going to address that from an earlier post. Not all of the teachings are being represented from those few phrases.

I have to finish my radio program for this Sunday morning right now, (recording, downloading, and transferring) and I'll get right back on that. Most interesting.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

[SIZE=+0]The Luke passage as well as the Rev passage are both speaking about getting saved. That alone is what makes us worthy. [/SIZE]]

Again,
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The book of Revelation, (and the seven letters to the churches especially) was written to The Church. They are addressed to and addressing believers.

And in the Luke passage, Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Not only are they (Peter, James, John and Andrew) believers under the Old Covenant (looking forward to the promised Messiah) but believers in Jesus "as" the Messiah that was promised to come. They are as "believer" as one can get.

[SIZE=+0]The scriptures say this; Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [/SIZE]]

Uhh, no argument there. I don't see your point. All unbelievers (the unrighteous) have no part in the Kingdom. The Kingdom is for the family of God (in whatever capacity one inherits) which consists of each and every believer throoughout all the ages.

[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]No amount of good works makes us worthy; [/SIZE]]

No amount of good works makes us worthy of salvation. It is a gift. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Yes, that's all that is necessary. But that's salvation. I'm not preaching and teaching worthiness from opinion. I wouldn't be preaching it at all had the scripture ever failed to mention it.

Revelation 3:4
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have "not" defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

The few that had not defiled their garments defines a larger portion of the church who had defiled their garments. (The lost don't have garments to defile) The members of the church that "had" defiled their garments will "not" walk with Christ in white because they are "not" worthy.

[SIZE=+0]But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.[/SIZE]]

Correct! Our righteousness, the very best of our best is but an infection (old testament) before him. Only Christ in us will account us righteous by God. But only "us in him", or "walking in the Spirit", or being in fellowship with him. Not just being in relationship with God, which is Father/child, added to the family. (All believers have the relationship, but not all believers have fellowship).

[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Even our best is like a filthy rag. Only the work of Christ in us satisfies God. [/SIZE]]

Correct! Only Christ in us will save us. But each of us continuing our service unto the Lord through his grace is what is necessary for fellowship.

Acts 13:43
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 14:21-22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation (during the church age, not the great tribulation itself) enter into the kingdom of God.

[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]We are spotless because of what the Lord has done, not because of what we do. Only the blood of Christ washes us, not good deeds.[/SIZE]]

We are washed clean of our sin of unbelief at the point of conversion, but we are instructed from then on to remain or continue in the Spirit or the Grace of God, to remain or continue "in him".

Romans 11:21-22
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, "if" thou "continue" in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Rejected. And thats the definition, not my "opinion".)

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (He is speaking to believers.)
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 "If" ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, "and" be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Are we to ignore the "IF's" of the scripture? There are more.

All the dead "in Christ" will be raised, those alive will be changed [and] both [will be] going with the Lord,

Correct !! All those that were in Christ at the time of their physical death, and those that are alive when the resurrection occurs that are in Christ at that time.

every believer who dies before the rapture is one of those.

]

The scripture does not agree with that statement. It does not make a comment anywhere in its pages that would resemble that assumption. That is an accepted doctrine by the pre-trib portion of the Church, but one that has no Biblical bases. Even the scripture passages that would be sighted do not say or even imply those teachings, they are inferred into the passage by the reader.

The epistles of Paul to the churches, that make up almost half of the New Testament, are corrective in their content and context. He was addressing problems in the churches. One of those was to the Galatians who had "fallen from grace", as he put it, (fallen out of good favor with God, since one can't fall from salvation itself.) Those who have fallen out of favor with God, are so because they are not walking in the Spirit or continuing "in the grace" of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the "dead in Christ" shall rise first]

Correct !! Those that are dead in Christ, or who were walking in the Spirit, or being obedient to and doing the will of our Heavenly Father through Christ at the time of their death.

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ]

Correct !! All those that are alive and remain in an indivisible moment of time after the resurrection that are in Christ at the time of the event will join those that have been raised glorified, and we will be changed just as they. But those that are not walking in the Spirit will not know it has happened for a few days, maybe weeks. The scripture tells us that only those that are looking for him will see him.

Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This has to be referring to The Rapture, because at the glorious appearing,,,

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[freeatlast]

There is no partial rapture. The Rev passages you are trying to use are for those lost in the church, not the saved.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

There is no partial rapture. The Rev passages you are trying to use are for those lost in the church, not the saved.

They can't be lost. Besides the opening statement of Revelation that Jesus is addressing "servants",,,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, "to shew unto his servants" things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

,,,there is an identifier of salvation contained in each of the letters to the seven churches. He is repremanding all but Philidelphia for unbecoming or disobedient behavior. Not calling them to salvation. Besides the identifiers, we have the reoccuring theme of "I have somewhat or a few things" against thee.

Jesus does not a "few" things against the world. He has only one. Unbelief. That's what makes them lost. All other sins will just enhance their punishment for their unbelief when their physical life comes to an end.

 

[freeatlast]

They can't be lost. Besides the opening statement of Revelation that Jesus is addressing "servants",,,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, "to shew unto his servants" things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

,,,there is an identifier of salvation contained in each of the letters to the seven churches. He is repremanding all but Philidelphia for unbecoming or disobedient behavior. Not calling them to salvation. Besides the identifiers, we have the reoccuring theme of "I have somewhat or a few things" against thee.

Jesus does not a "few" things against the world. He has only one. Unbelief. That's what makes them lost. All other sins will just enhance their punishment for their unbelief when their physical life comes to an end.

You keep going back to this old "they can't be lost". Many in the church are lost. Not a few but many, infact some churches are totally lost. My friend they are lost! Not everyone , but in the passages you are pointing to many are lost.
The reason that you are having some much trouble understanding scripture is because you have formed a doctrine that is contrary to the scripture and are trying to make the word of God conform to your belief. Just believe scripture and you will see that you belief is false.
Also you forget that the letters are to the Churches Pastors. Thye are to warn those in the church to hear what the Spirit says.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There is no partial rapture.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

You keep going back to this old "they can't be lost". Many in the church are lost.

Many in the church, that is true. I have already stated that. But they are not being addressed. Jesus is addressing his "servants". That's what the scripture says anyway, so that's what I accept from the mouth of our Lord.

Not a few but many, infact some churches are totally lost. My friend they are lost! Not everyone , but in the passages you are pointing to many are lost..

According to Jesus, he is not addressing the lost.

The reason that you are having some much trouble understanding scripture is because you have formed a doctrine that is contrary to the scripture and are trying to make the word of God conform to your belief. Just believe scripture and you will see that you belief is false...

The beliefs I have were learned from the scripture, independent of any outside influences. But, thank you for your concern.

Also you forget that the letters are to the Churches Pastors. Thye are to warn those in the church to hear what the Spirit says.

The "angels" of the seven churches are believed by many to be a referrence to the pastors, that is correct. I am also in agreement with that "interpretation". However, they were to deliver the message to their congregations as they received it, which will place the entire congragation into context of the messge. aka: "I have a few things against you."

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

As for your repeat of this quote, I sincerely pray you are not suggesting the any and all Christians are incapable of committing sin (of some sort, on some level) which is wholly unbiblical. We must compare scripture with scripture when the wording of a passage brings us up short. As in,, “Whoa, this says we can’t sin?”

The passage in the Rev you are using is speaking to a church that is not saved. it is not speaking to those who have been saved. The saved do not practice sin..

Once again, the book of Revelation was written for the express purpose,, "to shew unto his (God's/Jesus') servants". Believers. None of the seven churches of Asia were "lost". Yes, most (or all) of the churches had within them individuals that were not saved just as is common in any church, but they are not being addressed.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This quote is from I John 3:9

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

At first glance, this passage would appear to contradict John‘s earlier statement of,,,

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John opens this letter with the confession that even after salvation, all believers, however unintentional, can not avoid disobedience to God. (In our hearts, we know this to be true and acurate, therefore...)

Unintentional trespasses are the most common, and have to be reconciled through forgiveness (almost, if not daily). But on closer examination of the selected text, we find agreement.

Since in the first chapter he confirms that it is unavoidable for any Christian to live a sin free life at least on an unintentional level, even though we are given the opportunity by God to do so. What could I John 3:9 be referring to? What sin is it impossible for a believer to commit?

The sin of unbelief. A believer is incapable of committing the sin of unbelief, and God does not hold the trespasses we make after our salvation against our salvation.

All who have been “born of God”, or birthed of the Spirit, or baptized into the family of God are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and that presence remains in us forever, never to forsake us. It is our "unction", or endowment of. Our anointing of The Holy Ghost.

We can not commit the former sin of unbelief, because we “know” the truth. We know Christ as our personal savior. We are believers and are incapable of ever “not” believing again.

This makes all of John’s comments in First John agree.

1 John 1:4-10
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Not that you may just have joy through salvation and thus the relationship we have with God, he being our Heavenly Father, but that your joy may be full through fellowship with The Father through The Son.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from "all" sin.

We are forgiven in advance of any miscellaneous trespasses that we commit, but reconciliation is still necessary to bring us back into fellowship any time such offenses occur.

8 If we say that we have "no" sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, "that" ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The saved have Jesus making us righteous by his presence in us. We are seen by God to be righteous because of the presence of the Spirit of Jesus that dwells within us.

1 John 2:6
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is not the presence of him (The Holy Ghost) in us, but us in him. We are commanded repeatedly in the scripture to continue in him, in his grace, in his light, and to walk in the Spirit. John documented the relationship of the fellowship earlier in his life in his gospel, John chapter 15.

John 15 is awesome.

 

[freeatlast]

There is no partial rapture. Just think about this. What is the big thing about the tribulation? If a Christian dies during the tribulation they go to heaven. Anyone during the time of the tribulation who dies will go to be with the Lord upon their death. So whether we live or die we are the Lord's. You are trying to make a big deal out of this and it is not a big deal.
For the sake of argument let's say that you are correct, and only part of the saved will be resurrected, and that is the really, really holy ones. So what? The souls of those who have died are already with the Lord. Just because they have to wait a little longer to get a body is no big deal. They are not going to suffer. And to suggest that those who are still alive and are not really, really holy at the rapture will be left behind, big deal! They will die in the tribulation and go to heaven. So what you are trying to do has no reasoning or purpose.

Now I now what you are going to say. Some will miss out on being the bride. That is not possible. We are not saved to be anything except His bride. We are betrothed to Christ. It would take a divorce to become unbetrothed. That is not going to happen.
So you are not correct that there is a partial rapture. All the church will be raised or changed at the rapture.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The point behind teaching The Conditional (or Partial) Rapture is to inform the Church (the portion that has forgotten, or that is unaware through loss of knowledge) that there have always been "conditions" attached to the event in order for individual members of the Church to be included in The Bride of Christ. I didn't make this doctrine up, I only discovered it.

As a Southern Baptist (born and raised) upon individual study I began to have trouble reconciling many passages of the scripture with my "denominational" beliefs. Knowing in my heart that the scripture was correct above anything else, I chose to believe God's Word over man's interpretation or teaching.

Romans 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, "if" thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be "cut off". (Rejected. Now we can't be rejected as a child of God, so there is only one other possibility.)

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:23 "If" ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, "and" be not moved away from the "hope" of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The Hope of The Gospel is the Blessed Hope (The Rapture), that all believers are to be in joyfully anticipation of (Thy kingdom come). Some are not. They are tied to this present world and the things in it. Only those who are waiting and watching (in their heart) for the return of the BrideGroom, will be included in The Bride.

Yes the entire Church is saved and will be included in the kingdom. But those believers that will be left behind will face the horrors of The Great Tribulation Period,,, unnecessarily. God has provided an escape, why not take it?

My path (or calling) during the church age is to bring these scripturial facts to the attention of the Church. Whether I do any good or not, (convince anyone at all of the truth) is irrelevent. The duty is to do God's will, and my pleasure is to serve.

The catch 22 is that, the teachings themselves suggest very little of the Church will heed the warning. Then why preach?

I promised God I'd preach only the truth as he revealed that truth to me from his Word, through the Spirit. Can't go back on a promise to God without suffering the consequences. So I preach.

And your, "so what"? (,,, is like looking back in history to the Holocaust and saying the same thing. The first half of The Great Tribulation Period is going to make the Holocaust look like a Sunday afternoon picnic. Then the second half will trump the first half in spades. Jesus said there would not be another time in all of history, past-present-future worse than that final seven years before the Millennium.

By the breaking of the third or four seal of the Great Tribulation, all Christians will be outlaws and enemies of the state. By the fifth seal, most will have been murdered by the powers that be in authority under the anti-christ. (Revelation 6, "the souls under the altar") By the sixth seal, the remainder of the church that entered the Great Tribulation will have been slaughtered.

I wish no one to experience what my Bible details and describes, so I preach (at my own expense). Also, exclusion from the Rapture comes with a cost. Not only does one enter the great tribulation with nothing to look forward to but (up to and about) two and half years of tribulation, persecution, misery, suffering, trial (as of) by fire and eventual certain death; those individuals excluded from the Rapture will never be a part of the Bride. There are several other classifications that all believers throughout all the ages fall into, and all have their place in the kingdom. But the Bride is exclusive. She will be married as wife to the Son of God and King of all Kings of the Universe. Forever!!

Paul called and described it in this way.

Philippians 3:7-14
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of "his" resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 "If" by any means "I" might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, "if" that "I may apprehend" that for which "also" I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the "high calling" of God "in Christ Jesus".

Paul called it the high calling. Something that he was striving for himself. He called all others to strive for it as well. Now just for a moment,,, let's suppose that Brideship to the Lord is as far above salvation, as salvation is above damnation. A lot of believers are going to miss out on the greatest prize ever offered by God to his creation.

He also didn't add, "But if not, that's okay. I'll be there anyway. That's just as good."

But selfishly I must admit.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I wouldn't miss that for,,, well, anything... Literally !!