Resistance can be at first and usually is. Did you get saved the first time you heard the gospel. The point is that those that God has chosen before the foundation of the world will come to him. They will not resist for their entire life. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
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Does this indicate a choice?
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Resistance can be at first and usually is. Did you get saved the first time you heard the gospel. The point is that those that God has chosen before the foundation of the world will come to him. They will not resist for their entire life. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
psalms109:31
Active Member
Resistance
Resistance shows we differently we have a choice. So don't continue to resist the Spirit through the words of Jesus, because rejecting His word you are the one rejecting life. So we are dead without accepting His word. If you didn't have His word you wouldn't have any life in you to do anything, but continue down the path you have always been on, a road to death. Jesus word is the regenerating power of God it is working on you till you walk away from it and reject it.
God is knocking on the door you have to open the door, and you are not doing it on your own, because you have His word, don't walk away from His word your only hope. You just trust in Him open the door and let Him do the work in you. You are not doing it on your own you have His word.
I don't have to be wise to know that resisting shows choice.
Resistance shows we differently we have a choice. So don't continue to resist the Spirit through the words of Jesus, because rejecting His word you are the one rejecting life. So we are dead without accepting His word. If you didn't have His word you wouldn't have any life in you to do anything, but continue down the path you have always been on, a road to death. Jesus word is the regenerating power of God it is working on you till you walk away from it and reject it.
God is knocking on the door you have to open the door, and you are not doing it on your own, because you have His word, don't walk away from His word your only hope. You just trust in Him open the door and let Him do the work in you. You are not doing it on your own you have His word.
I don't have to be wise to know that resisting shows choice.
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Robert Snow
New Member
Calvinism teaches that a person who God chooses has no ability to resist the ultimate salvation from God regardless of what that person does or has done. I disagree!
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
That's not exactly true. At least it isn't accurate and it is a crude way of describing "Irresistible Grace."
God does not drag us kicking and screaming.
The idea of "Irresistible Grace" is that God makes the unwilling willing.
The Archangel
A person whom God chooses does have the ability to resist. They will not want to resist God forever, but will come to him in due time.
And, you can disagree, but that is what the Bible teaches. I'm not sure what the "person does or has done" has anything to do unless you are talking about works salvation. Your works play no part in your salvation. John 6 clearly teaches that all that the Father has given the son will come to him. Romans 8 teaches that all that are chosen will be justified and will be glorified.
I think it's amusing that people follow the teachings of a man that murdered many with no apparent remorse.
I Timothy 2:4-6
I John 2:2
Jesus came for all and he loves everyone. He has no favorites, and to say he does would be prideful and boastful. I'm saved because I trust in him as my savior with the freewill be has graced me with because of his mercy. I'm thankful that our Lords blood was sufficient for every living person in this world and that God wants us all to come to him and live with him for eternity!
I Timothy 2:4-6
I John 2:2
Jesus came for all and he loves everyone. He has no favorites, and to say he does would be prideful and boastful. I'm saved because I trust in him as my savior with the freewill be has graced me with because of his mercy. I'm thankful that our Lords blood was sufficient for every living person in this world and that God wants us all to come to him and live with him for eternity!
Robert Snow
New Member
So, God basically treats us as robots. We have not choice? I think not!
So you say, but I still think this is scripturally wrong theology. And, I'm not alone. There are a vast number of blood-bought Christians who disagree with Calvinism.
Responding to the Gospel call is nothing near "works" salvation, it's biblical salvation!
Yes, the Father has given to the Son all who will chose to come to Christ. That is those who will exercise their will when the Holy Spirit call them.
It is not amusing that you are so ill-informed and decide to spread that kind of junk around. Start a thread on "Calvin the Killer" if you wish --just don't muddy the carpets here with your disinformation campaign.
Every one does nothign BUT resist the Holy Ghost until they are regenerated.
This is what Calvinism teaches.
I do not know of a doctrine on the earth that teaches that no one can ever resist the Holy Ghost.
Praise God, you have it right. I resisted as long as I could, but the Lord broke down my resistance, othrwise I know I would still be lost. The thing about being lost is that you can't find the way; you need someone to lead you. Yes, eventually I was willing, but it was the Lord that made me willing (Psalm 110:3, KJV).
Oh! the Bitter shame and sorrow,
That a time could ever be
When I let the Saviour's pity
Plead in vain and proudly answered,
'All of self and none of Thee!'
Yet He found me; I beheld Him
Bleeding on th'accursed tree,
Heard Him pray, 'Forgive them, Father!'
And my wistful heart said faintly,
'Some of self and some of Thee.'
Day by day His tender mercy,
Healing, helping, full and free,
Sweet and strong, and ah! So patient,
Brought me lower, while I whispered,
'Less of self and more of Thee!'
Higher than the highest heavens,
Deeper than the deepest sea,
Lord, Thy love at last has conquered;
Grant me now my supplication-
'None of self, and all of Thee!'
Theodore Monod
Steve
quantumfaith
Active Member
Archangel
Correct me if I am wrong, seem to remember a use of the word "draw" in the NT and that reformers often make a point to note that an acceptable translation of it is "being dragged".
No, we have choices. Haven't you heard me say that? We are not robots. We make choices every day.
Of course. We interpret the Scriptures differently. That's fine. Salvation isn't dependent on getting this doctrine correct.
Never said it was. And I don't disagree with responding to the gospel call.
Ah, but it doesn't say that now does it. No where in Scripture does i say that. And you noticed it say quite the opposite. All that the father has given the son will come to him", not all that will come to him has the father given the son.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Quantumfaith,
Honestly, I'm not really sure if the reformers preferred "being dragged" or even if they did translate it that way.
The word "draw," I think, is a much better understanding.
One might see the conversion of Saul as "being dragged" (though, that would be a crude way to see it). But, Saul became very willing to follow Christ, even though he was absolutely unwilling before the bright light on the Damascus road. Though Saul should not be seen a paradigmatic for conversion, I think it is obvious that he, the unwilling, was made to be willing.
One reason that I think "draw" (or even "woo") is a better concept is that Saul was changed, which is abundantly evident. The idea of "being dragged" implies that the one being dragged is utterly and unchangeably unwilling. The proper reformed understanding of Irresistible Grace is not that we remain unwilling after being dragged into the Kingdom, but that we become willing before we enter the Kingdom--and it is God who has made us willing.
Blessings,
The Archangel
It is true God makes the unwilling willing, but not in the fashion Calvinism teaches.
What Calvinism teaches is not unlike "date rape" where a fellow drugs an unwilling girl so her inhibitions drop and he can take advantage of her.
No, the scriptures show God uses "persuasion". In Acts 19:8 and Acts 28:23 it shows Paul entered the synagogues and opened the scriptures, "persuading them". There was no force, if a person refused to listen he would tell someone else who would listen. This is not what Calvinism teaches whatsoever. In Calvinism God imposes and forces faith upon the unwilling.
It was the same when Jesus sent his disciples out. If someone was willing to listen they were to enter that home and stay there. If someone was not willing to hear, they would knock the dust off their feet and leave. They were instructed not to force or impose themselves on anyone.
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Oh I see ....God uses persuasion.... hmmm, kinda like a sales pitch......Interesting.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Saved
If the Spirit and life in the words of Jesus would of only said believe in me and be saved, you wouldn't have an ability to do nothing else. It does provide an out to continue in unbelief and be condemned. So you can do either or.
If the Spirit and life in the words of Jesus would of only said believe in me and be saved, you wouldn't have an ability to do nothing else. It does provide an out to continue in unbelief and be condemned. So you can do either or.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
God uses his messengers, who do certainly seem to be quite "persuasive."
Acts 28: 23From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.
2 Cor 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Paul: I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
no effectual calling then? What if God was off his game that day? Im not convinced & I dont like sales pitches that day? your saying Im doomed?
You know, the biggest problem I see with Calvinists is that you think yourselves super smart, and believe anyone who disagrees with you must be morons.
Yes, PERSUASION. That is what the scriptures say.
Let me ask you, when you met your wife, did you grab her by the hair and drag her off? Or maybe you are one of those guys who slipped a drug into her drink when she wasn't looking?
Not me, I got a haircut, put on my best clothes, cleaned the car inside and out, flossed my teeth and gargled Listerine, and took her to a nice restaurant. I pulled out all the stops, whatever I could do to get her to like me. AND IT WORKED.
The last thing I did was try to force myself upon her.
You guys are selling too, but you are pitching a story only an idiot would fall for.
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