Does this indicate a choice?

[jbh28]

Matter of fact, Fred Phelps is a Primitive Baptist; I wonder if he is indicative of the kind of people they produce? Probably not, although some here seem as mean-spirited as he is.

He is very mean-spirited and I try not to be that way. I have failed though many times. I think we forget sometimes that though you and I don't interpret some passages the say way, we are still Christians and should respect each other despite our theological differences.

My point was that just because somebody is bad and believes a certain way doesn't mean that their theology is bad. Someone can have good theology and be a bad person. Someone being bad doesn't make their theology wrong any more than someone being good makes their theology right.

 

[webdog]

No, Sanctification happens after justification. Without faith, there is no justification, no sanctification, no glorification.

How can man have a new heart apart from Christ?

 

[kyredneck]

In Matthew 8:21 a man is called by Jesus to follow Him refused to follow but wanted to go bury his father.

That is a very shallow hasty take of this passage. I totally disagree with this. If anything this passage actually refutes your position. Christ did NOT allow him to reject Him.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1635999#post1635999

There are other examples where Jesus calls people who reject Him. The case for determinism falls apart in the pages of the New Testament.

Please give more examples.

 

[jbh28]

How can man have a new heart apart from Christ?

They can't. I have never one time said that someone can have a new heart apart from Christ?

 

[webdog]

They can't. I have never one time said that someone can have a new heart apart from Christ?

You said "You were sealed after you believed, not given a new heart after you believed." If you weren't given a new heart after you believed, when did you receive the new heart?

 

[jbh28]

You said "You were sealed after you believed, not given a new heart after you believed." If you weren't given a new heart after you believed, when did you receive the new heart?

This isn't what you asked. You asked how can we have a new heart apart from Christ. Again, I'm not sure why you asked me such a question. Do you really believe I think any part of our salvation is apart from Christ? Ephesians shows salvation from beginning to end. And ALL of it is in Christ. There is no part of it(election to glorification) that is apart from Christ.


Now, to your new question. It happens at the same time as faith, justification, conversion... You don't have faith and yet be unregenerate. You don't have regeneration and not have faith.

 

[webdog]

This isn't what you asked. You asked how can we have a new heart apart from Christ. Again, I'm not sure why you asked me such a question. Do you really believe I think any part of our salvation is apart from Christ? Ephesians shows salvation from beginning to end. And ALL of it is in Christ. There is no part of it(election to glorification) that is apart from Christ.


Now, to your new question. It happens at the same time as faith, justification, conversion... You don't have faith and yet be unregenerate. You don't have regeneration and not have faith.

I apologize, I assumed you were arguing from the pre-faith regeneration stance that most seem to hold to.

If you claim that all of salvation is in Christ, that would mean even election has to be...and not to be in Christ.

 

[jbh28]

I apologize, I assumed you were arguing from the pre-faith regeneration stance that most seem to hold to.

If you claim that all of salvation is in Christ, that would mean even election has to be...and not to be in Christ.

Of course election is in Christ. We are not in Christ before the foundation of the world. We are not in Christ till we are saved. The election was in Christ and it was done before the foundation of the world. And no, I don't believe we have regeneration and not have faith. I know some Calvinist believe that, but I do not. I don't see us having regeneration apart from Christ. I see why you might have thought that.

 

[Winman]

This isn't what you asked. You asked how can we have a new heart apart from Christ. Again, I'm not sure why you asked me such a question. Do you really believe I think any part of our salvation is apart from Christ? Ephesians shows salvation from beginning to end. And ALL of it is in Christ. There is no part of it(election to glorification) that is apart from Christ.


Now, to your new question. It happens at the same time as faith, justification, conversion... You don't have faith and yet be unregenerate. You don't have regeneration and not have faith.

While I would agree that faith and regeneration occur at the same instant, there are numerous scriptures that show faith comes first (John 20:31). The scriptures repeatedly say one cannot have life until you first believe, you do receive the Spirit until you first believe, you are not justified until you first believe...

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what scripture teaches, Calvinism teaches you must have life to have the ability to believe, the scriptures teach you must believe to have life.

 

[Luke2427]

It is true God makes the unwilling willing, but not in the fashion Calvinism teaches.
What Calvinism teaches is not unlike "date rape" where a fellow drugs an unwilling girl so her inhibitions drop and he can take advantage of her.

Did you get beat up a lot as a kid- because you are forever saying some of the most inflammatory statements imaginable.

DATE RAPE????

Low class.

Never complain about being called ANYTHING by a Calvinist again.

No, the scriptures show God uses "persuasion". In Acts 19:8 and Acts 28:23 it shows Paul entered the synagogues and opened the scriptures, "persuading them". There was no force, if a person refused to listen he would tell someone else who would listen. This is not what Calvinism teaches whatsoever. In Calvinism God imposes and forces faith upon the unwilling.

For the billionth time- no he doesn't. HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.

Got it?

You really ought to get some training.

This subject matter is beyond your abilities.

It was the same when Jesus sent his disciples out. If someone was willing to listen they were to enter that home and stay there. If someone was not willing to hear, they would knock the dust off their feet and leave. They were instructed not to force or impose themselves on anyone.

HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.


You got it yet?

 

[Luke2427]

Of course election is in Christ. We are not in Christ before the foundation of the world. We are not in Christ till we are saved. The election was in Christ and it was done before the foundation of the world. And no, I don't believe we have regeneration and not have faith. I know some Calvinist believe that, but I do not. I don't see us having regeneration apart from Christ. I see why you might have thought that.

This is not a consistent Calvinist position.

Regeneration of necessity MUST precede faith.

Faith in the case of all accountable beings must precede salvation.

Believing is receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The natural man CANNOT do this. (II Corinthians 2:14)

Regeneration is the only thing that makes man more than natural.

Once he is made alive spiritually then he can receive the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. believe.

When he believes he is eternally saved.

 

[Luke2427]

God does give a person a new heart and spirit AFTER they believe.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

They cannot believe until they have a new heart.

the verse talks about salvation. This is a constant error of yours.

No real theologian sees salvation as just another synonym for regeneration. They can be used interchangeably in many contexts but they are not synonymous.

This is why you ought to look into some undergrad religious studies.

 

[Winman]

Did you get beat up a lot as a kid- because you are forever saying some of the most inflammatory statements imaginable.

Oh, a couple of big lunks tried, but I straightened them out quick.

DATE RAPE????
Low class.

Perfectly accurate.

Never complain about being called ANYTHING by a Calvinist again.

I am not a crybaby who loses his temper and throws a tantrum, call me anything you like, I get a chuckle out of it.

For the billionth time- no he doesn't. HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.

In your system he does. Does he get their permission?

You really ought to get some training.

No thanks, I don't let other people do my thinking for me.

This subject matter is beyond your abilities.

No it's not, I understand it, and that is why I reject it.

HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
HE DOES NOT FORCE ANYBODY TO GET SAVED.
You got it yet?

Have you ever heard of compulsive behavior?

 

[The Archangel]

It is true God makes the unwilling willing, but not in the fashion Calvinism teaches.
What Calvinism teaches is not unlike "date rape" where a fellow drugs an unwilling girl so her inhibitions drop and he can take advantage of her.

This statement is hideously stupid, wrong, and it shows you to be an ignoramus of astronomical proportions. Your statement is wrong and offensive--as you have been told before.

In short, this is idiocy displayed.

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

This statement is hideously stupid, wrong, and it shows you to be an ignoramus of astronomical proportions. Your statement is wrong and offensive--as you have been told before.

In short, this is idiocy displayed.

The Archangel

Hmmmm........

Pot. Kettle........never mind.

If you had not engaged in the very things that you are accusing glf of doing, one might be persuaded. As it is, and since you are well-known for doing exactly what you are resenting what you perceive glf for doing, your question is seen, not as a legitimate question, but as the question of a self-styled martyr.

Unfortunate.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Mets65 says:

I think it's amusing that people follow the teachings of a man that murdered many with no apparent remorse.

I Timothy 2:4-6
I John 2:2

Jesus came for all and he loves everyone. He has no favorites, and to say he does would be prideful and boastful. I'm saved because I trust in him as my savior with the freewill be has graced me with because of his mercy. I'm thankful that our Lords blood was sufficient for every living person in this world and that God wants us all to come to him and live with him for eternity!

Webdog replies:

I think you are out of line with this statement. Even though many of our calvinist brothers stoop to such lows in describing our theology this is not a good reflection on who they follow.

Archangel says:

That's not exactly true. At least it isn't accurate and it is a crude way of describing "Irresistible Grace."

God does not drag us kicking and screaming.

The idea of "Irresistible Grace" is that God makes the unwilling willing.

The Archangel

Winman replies:

It is true God makes the unwilling willing, but not in the fashion Calvinism teaches.
What Calvinism teaches is not unlike "date rape" where a fellow drugs an unwilling girl so her inhibitions drop and he can take advantage of her.

Webdog replies:


My posting now? Webdog's hypocrisy on display. Q.E.D.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

This statement is hideously stupid, wrong, and it shows you to be an ignoramus of astronomical proportions. Your statement is wrong and offensive--as you have been told before.

In short, this is idiocy displayed.

The Archangel

You can call me anything you want, but this is exactly what your doctrine amounts to, and any clear-headed person can see this. You guys must truly believe people are stupid.

I know for a fact if I asked you if God asks a person permission before he changes their will that you would say NO! You can't have that, that would be man saving himself in your view. Well, that means God forces or imposes himself on the person.

This is not one bit different from a fellow slipping a drug into a girl's drink to make her willing to sleep with him. We put these guys in jail and rightfully so.

The only difference is that you have God using his supernatural powers instead of a drug.

How any sane and intelligent person cannot see this is beyond me!

 

[jbh28]

While I would agree that faith and regeneration occur at the same instant, there are numerous scriptures that show faith comes first (John 20:31).

So why do you believe they happen at the same time if the Scriptures say that faith comes first?

The scriptures repeatedly say one cannot have life until you first believe, you do receive the Spirit until you first believe, you are not justified until you first believe...

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what scripture teaches, Calvinism teaches you must have life to have the ability to believe, the scriptures teach you must believe to have life.

The Scriptures teach that you have to have faith to have life and you have to have life to have faith. You don't have faith and not have life, so faith cannot precede life.

 

[jbh28]

This is not a consistent Calvinist position.

Regeneration of necessity MUST precede faith.

Faith in the case of all accountable beings must precede salvation.

Believing is receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The natural man CANNOT do this. (II Corinthians 2:14)

Regeneration is the only thing that makes man more than natural.

Once he is made alive spiritually then he can receive the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. believe.

When he believes he is eternally saved.

I understand it's not a Calvinist position, but that's fine. I try to line my doctrine up with Scripture and not a system. I say that faith happens at regeneration. Otherwise, you would have regenerate people outside of Christ. But you also have passages (like II Corinthians 2:14) that show that the natural man won't come to Christ outside of Christ. That's why my position is that they happen at the same time. Faith is us believing on Jesus. Regeneration is God giving us new life. I believe God is the start of the events, but that it all happens at the same time.

 

[Winman]

I understand it's not a Calvinist position, but that's fine. I try to line my doctrine up with Scripture and not a system. I say that faith happens at regeneration. Otherwise, you would have regenerate people outside of Christ. But you also have passages (like II Corinthians 2:14) that show that the natural man won't come to Christ outside of Christ. That's why my position is that they happen at the same time. Faith is us believing on Jesus. Regeneration is God giving us new life. I believe God is the start of the events, but that it all happens at the same time.

You are trying to ride the fence and it can't be done. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

John 20:31 says, AND THAT BELIEVEING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE.

Faith is clearly the cause and life the effect.

But if you wish to deceive yourself, that is your business.