The Present State of God's Kingdom on earth

[Dr. Walter]

I think a major misunderstanding of the kingdom of God as it is in this present age is that most fail to understand that it is has a VISIBLE aspect.

This visible aspect is two-fold.

1. There is a visible aspect in the sense of PROFESSION - Mt. 13

2. There is a visible aspect in the sense of PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION of God's kingdom on earth - Mt. 18:17-18; 21:45;

This second aspect of PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION is inclusive of a PUBLIC house of God, (1 Tim. 3:15) with a publicly qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) and publicly qualfied ordinances with a public qualified commission (Mt. 28:19-20).

It is within this visible and public aspect of God's kingdom on earth where confusion and false profession lie. In contrast the invisible aspect of God's kingdom on earth is the rule of God within the hearts of humans. Such humans at any given period in time compose the two visible aspects of God's kingdom on earth. They are among those who profess Him as Lord and Savior. They are among those who congregate as the public house of God and among the qualified public ministry. It is within this public aspect where both the family of God and Satan mingle under the profession of true children of God.

 

[Amy.G]

I agree with you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think a major misunderstanding of the kingdom of God as it is in this present age is that most fail to understand that it is has a VISIBLE aspect.

This visible aspect is two-fold.

1. There is a visible aspect in the sense of PROFESSION - Mt. 13

2. There is a visible aspect in the sense of PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION of God's kingdom on earth - Mt. 18:17-18; 21:45;

This second aspect of PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION is inclusive of a PUBLIC house of God, (1 Tim. 3:15) with a publicly qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) and publicly qualfied ordinances with a public qualified commission (Mt. 28:19-20).

It is within this visible and public aspect of God's kingdom on earth where confusion and false profession lie. In contrast the invisible aspect of God's kingdom on earth is the rule of God within the hearts of humans. Such humans at any given period in time compose the two visible aspects of God's kingdom on earth. They are among those who profess Him as Lord and Savior. They are among those who congregate as the public house of God and among the qualified public ministry. It is within this public aspect where both the family of God and Satan mingle under the profession of true children of God.

Let me further define what I have stated about the visible aspect of God's kingdom on earth.

All true children of God are found among the professed kingdom but not all true children of God are found within the public administrative kingdom of God or in His congregations. Thus the all true children of God equal the family of God on earth at any given time but they do not equal the congration of God on earth at any given time.

All false children of God are found among the professed kingdom and unfortunately many are also found within the public administrative kingdom of God or in His congregations.

 

[Amy.G]

Let me further define what I have stated about the visible aspect of God's kingdom on earth.

All true children of God are found among the professed kingdom but not all true children of God are found within the public administrative kingdom of God or in His congregations. Thus the all true children of God equal the family of God on earth at any given time but they do not equal the congration of God on earth at any given time.

All false children of God are found among the professed kingdom and unfortunately many are also found within the public administrative kingdom of God or in His congregations.

Yes. The wheat and the tares.

I guess you wanted someone to debate you though.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes. The wheat and the tares.

I guess you wanted someone to debate you though.

I would be much better satisfied if everyone agreed. Thank you for you positive input. It is more blessed to have unity even though the debate is stimulating.

 

[grace4grace]

Excellent post...and as was stated...wheat and tares.

 

[hillclimber1]

OK, I'll bite.. Christ's earthly ministry was to the "Lost sheep of the house of Israel." He came to offer Himself to Israel as their King.. All His miracles, the institution of water baptism, the sign gifts, were all aimed at Israel alone.. His Kingdom people..

We, the "Body of Christ" are not part of Israel.. We were a plan of the Father, "Hid in Him", whereby Jew and Gentile are one and the same.. That Kingdom plan could have been completed with Christ taking His rightful place on David's throne.. But Israel rejected Christ, and we crucified Him. The plan, hidden in the Father was put in place with the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. Paul was sent to all mankind, with this whole new program of salvation for all who simply believe in Christ.

That Kingdom program will come back as soon as this "Age of Grace" comes to an end.. The Great commission is part of that Kingdom program, and will commence with 144K Israeli zealots sent to all the world to preach the Kingdom gospel.. They have the need to be protected from harm because during the tribulation the restraint on evil has been lifted by the calling away "rapture" of the "The Body of Christ"..

Today, the Body of Christ IS the restraint and the world has great contempt for it. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer and acts as an enormous restraint, but evil is progressing in all areas of social and personal issues. ie, we kill our babies, and have all but fully accepted homosexuality as normal, have elected officials without integrity, lack of family values, etc.

 

[Dr. Walter]

OK, I'll bite.. Christ's earthly ministry was to the "Lost sheep of the house of Israel." He came to offer Himself to Israel as their King.. All His miracles, the institution of water baptism, the sign gifts, were all aimed at Israel alone.. His Kingdom people..

That is not what I am saying! I do not believe he came to offer himself as their king but to declare Himself the King over his kingdom. I do not believe He came to set up an earthly kingdom but he came to die on the cross to provide the propitatian for his true kingdom. I do not believe water baptism was for Israel but that John the Baptist was sent to prepare the material for Christ to establish a new public visible kingdom administration within his kingdom - a new house of God with new qualified ministry with new ordinances with a new commission (Lk. 1:17; Mt. 16:18; 18:17-18).

We, the "Body of Christ" are not part of Israel.. We were a plan of the Father, "Hid in Him", whereby Jew and Gentile are one and the same..

The new house of God - the visible congregational body of Christ has nothing to do with salvation but with the implementation of both Jew WITH Gentiles working equally within the new house of God. It was composed entirely of Jews during the earthly ministry of Christ and it was not built by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost but merely "added unto" (Acts 2:41) and empowered and publicly accredited as the new house of God (Acts 2:1-2).

That Kingdom plan could have been completed with Christ taking His rightful place on David's throne.. But Israel rejected Christ, and we crucified Him.

He did not come to set up an earthly Jewish kingdom but to die and provide propitiation according to the gospel promised since Genesis 3:15 and offer himself to Israel as LORD and Savior as there is no entrance into his kingdom except those born of God (Jn. 3:3) and there is no new birth without repentance and confession of faith in Christ (Jn. 3:15-16). If what you were saying were true he would have had his disciples proclaim He was their king but instead forbid not only them but all he healed to announce that he had come as their king to set up an earthly kingdom. He flatly told Pilot that his kingdom was not of this world without rejecting that He was the King over his kingdom.

The plan, hidden in the Father was put in place with the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. Paul was sent to all mankind, with this whole new program of salvation for all who simply believe in Christ.

Peter and James in front of Paul claimed that Peter was "the first" to preach the gospel to Gentiles (Acts 15) and incorporated them into the new house of God. There was no new gospel preached to the gentiles (Acts 10:43) but the same gospel that has been preached by all the prophets (Acts 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2). Paul was merely the Apostle of the Gentiles to announce that they were now EQUAL within the new house of God and that there was no "middle wall of partition" in this new house of God. This removal of the "middle wall of partition" had nothing to do with salvation but with SERVICE in God's new house.

That Kingdom program will come back as soon as this "Age of Grace" comes to an end.

The kingdom program has NEVER changed but the visible administration of that program has shifted from the visible Jewish temple administration to the visible congregational administration. Paul is still preaching the gospel of the kingdom at the close of Acts (Acts 28:31).

The Great commission is part of that Kingdom program, and will commence with 144K Israeli zealots sent to all the world to preach the Kingdom gospel..

Nothing could be more false! The Great Commission has to do with this present age and includes both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 1:8) and begins in Jerusalem, judea, Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth and continues until the end of this age (Mt. 28:19-20). The 144,000 in Revelation 7 have to do with God's promise to Abraham to save "all Israel" after all the elect among the Gentiles have come in (Rom. 11:25-28).

They have the need to be protected from harm because during the tribulation the restraint on evil has been lifted by the calling away "rapture" of the "The Body of Christ".

Sorry, but I am not a Pre-tribber but a historical Post-tribber. The restrainer is not the congregations of Christ or the Holy Spirit but Michael the Archangel (Daniel 10:20-22). However, many brethren hold to the Pre-trib view without embracing the scenario you have offered.

 

[hillclimber1]

Dr. Walter, Monday is our day to prepare todays lesson and pray for Good News Club, so I'll get back to this this evening or tomorrow morning..

 

[Tom Butler]

I looked up the 144,000 in Rev 7.

It says they were sealed. That's it.
It does not say they were zealots, or evangelists, or that they did anything.

Interesting thing: It lists Joseph and his son Mannasseh, but not his son Ephraim, nor the tribe of Dan. And it does not say they are all men.

Revelation 14 speaks of 144,000, who have the Father's name written on the foreheads, who learned a song only they could learn, they were redeemed from the earth, were virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Are these the same 144,000 of Rev. 7?

I just wonder from whence came the idea that they were evangelists.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I looked up the 144,000 in Rev 7.

It says they were sealed. That's it.
It does not say they were zealots, or evangelists, or that they did anything.

Interesting thing: It lists Joseph and his son Mannasseh, but not his son Ephraim, nor the tribe of Dan. And it does not say they are all men.

Revelation 14 speaks of 144,000, who have the Father's name written on the foreheads, who learned a song only they could learn, they were redeemed from the earth, were virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Are these the same 144,000 of Rev. 7?

I just wonder from whence came the idea that they were evangelists.

It is a Pre-trib Premilliannial dispensational interpretation.

 

[Tom Butler]

It is a Pre-trib Premilliannial dispensational interpretation.

Yep, you're right. Straight out Hal Lindsey's books.

But where did HE get it?

And what about ol' Dan and young Ephraim? Any know why they were omitted? And Mannaseh included?

 

[hillclimber1]

The new house of God - the visible congregational body of Christ has nothing to do with salvation but with the implementation of both Jew WITH Gentiles working equally within the new house of God. It was composed entirely of Jews during the earthly ministry of Christ and it was not built by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost but merely "added unto" (Acts 2:41) and empowered and publicly accredited as the new house of God (Acts 2:1-2).

The Pentecostal church was the kingdom church, and their commission was to go to the world and bring in everyone, but by a public demonstration at the stoning of Stephen, the leaders representing Israel, did not believe his testimony and God put that promise that He would return as the King, on hold. Also, in Heaven, where Christ had been standing, at the ready, sits down.. Now, the Body of Christ "the church", is made of Jews and Gentiles, and our commission is still to preach the gospel to the whole world, but the signs that followed them are nowhere to be found today. Our message is not "Repent and be Baptized" for the remission of sin, but "Be Reconciled" IICor 5:20-21

He did not come to set up an earthly Jewish kingdom but to die and provide propitiation according to the gospel promised since Genesis 3:15 and offer himself to Israel as LORD and Savior as there is no entrance into his kingdom except those born of God (Jn. 3:3) and there is no new birth without repentance and confession of faith in Christ (Jn. 3:15-16). If what you were saying were true he would have had his disciples proclaim He was their king but instead forbid not only them but all he healed to announce that he had come as their king to set up an earthly kingdom. He flatly told Pilot that his kingdom was not of this world without rejecting that He was the King over his kingdom.

I can see this perspective. And Pilot declared Him "King of the Jews".

Peter and James in front of Paul claimed that Peter was "the first" to preach the gospel to Gentiles (Acts 15) and incorporated them into the new house of God. There was no new gospel preached to the gentiles (Acts 10:43) but the same gospel that has been preached by all the prophets (Acts 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2). Paul was merely the Apostle of the Gentiles to announce that they were now EQUAL within the new house of God and that there was no "middle wall of partition" in this new house of God. This removal of the "middle wall of partition" had nothing to do with salvation but with SERVICE in God's new house.

Paul was not saying "You Gentiles can now join with Israel" He was telling the whole world that now, God isn't dealing with just the nation of Israel but with everyone, Jew and Gentile. This was a completely new program, or dispensation, abruptly cutting off the prophetic program, for a time. So far it's lasted over 2000 years.

The kingdom program has NEVER changed but the visible administration of that program has shifted from the visible Jewish temple administration to the visible congregational administration. Paul is still preaching the gospel of the kingdom at the close of Acts (Acts 28:31).

The KINGDOM program has been postponed, due to the hardness of heart and unbelief of Israel as a whole. The temple which was destroyed in 70 A.D. was always and always will be central to Israel's worship. That's why in the tribulation you see that the temple has been rebuilt. Today Paul's message to us is that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Yes, there's things that are similar, but also differences. The Good News of the Kingdom was repent and be Baptized. (at Pentecost, repent meant "you have crucified your Messiah, repent of this' and He would send back your King! Now, the Good News that we preach and believe is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" and you will be saved. (HIS death and resurrection) A believer under the Kingdom program demonstrated their faith by works. (bringing sacrifices, water baptism, etc.) and many signs followed them that believed. (tongues, healings, handling serpents,etc)

Nothing could be more false! The Great Commission has to do with this present age and includes both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 1:8) and begins in Jerusalem, judea, Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth and continues until the end of this age (Mt. 28:19-20). The 144,000 in Revelation 7 have to do with God's promise to Abraham to save "all Israel" after all the elect among the Gentiles have come in (Rom. 11:25-28).

I guess we'll simply disagree on this.. And I decidedly take the pre-trib position.

Sorry, but I am not a Pre-tribber but a historical Post-tribber. The restrainer is not the congregations of Christ or the Holy Spirit but Michael the Archangel (Daniel 10:20-22). However, many brethren hold to the Pre-trib view without embracing the scenario you have offered.

I don't follow you on this at all. sorry.. also sorry you'll have to go through the time of tribulation, if you live long enough..

 

[hillclimber1]

Dr. Walter, We'd love to go through this whole thing in detail, but my wife and I have too little time right now to address this appropriately.. I should not have responded originally..

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Pentecostal church was the kingdom church, and their commission was to go to the world and bring in everyone,

This is factually wrong! The day of pentecost simply says that the 3,000 were "ADDED UNTO" them. The new kingdom house of God (congregation of Christ) had been habitually assembly since the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22) as baptized beleivers in Christ. They had assembled by number in a called business meeting to replace a functioning church officer in Acts 1.

but by a public demonstration at the stoning of Stephen, the leaders representing Israel, did not believe his testimony and God put that promise that He would return as the King, on hold.

This is factually wrong! There is not a single word in Acts 7 to support this assumption! The old Testament prophets predicted that God would turn from Israel and go to the Gentiles and Christ had no intention of returning until Israel would receive Him as Christ and the time of this was equally predicted by the Old Testament prophets to be after God turned from Israel to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:25-28).

Also, in Heaven, where Christ had been standing, at the ready, sits down.. Now, the Body of Christ "the church", is made of Jews and Gentiles, and our commission is still to preach the gospel to the whole world, but the signs that followed them are nowhere to be found today. Our message is not "Repent and be Baptized" for the remission of sin, but "Be Reconciled" IICor 5:20-21

This is factually wrong! There has never been a different gospel and it is always the gospel of repentance through faith in either the coming Christ or the Christ that has come:

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Paul was not saying "You Gentiles can now join with Israel" He was telling the whole world that now, God isn't dealing with just the nation of Israel but with everyone, Jew and Gentile. This was a completely new program, or dispensation, abruptly cutting off the prophetic program, for a time. So far it's lasted over 2000 years.

This is facually wrong! God had been saving gentiles before the cross and there are Old Testament records to prove it. He saved them then just as he saves them now by the very same gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23). There is no NEW gospel and to say there is is to place yourself under Paul's curse (Gal. 1:6-9) as his gospel was the same gospel preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:6-8) as Abraham was "IN CHRIST" (Gal. 3:17) through justification by faith (Rom. 4:1-25).

What was new was a NEW visible kingdom administrator of the "everlasting covenant" (Mt. 18:17-18; Heb. 13:20) or the New Covenant congregation of Christ with new ordinances, new officers or qualified ministry and a new commission WITHOUT THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION as in the old VISIBLE house of God (Eph. 2:14) which denied that SAVED gentiles were EQUAL with SAVED Jews in the VISIBLE PUBLIC house of worship.

The KINGDOM program has been postponed, due to the hardness of heart and unbelief of Israel as a whole. The temple which was destroyed in 70 A.D. was always and always will be central to Israel's worship.

This is Biblicall inaccurate. From the very birth of Jesus it was announced that he came to "save" his people from their sins. He repeatedly told his followers that he came to die on the cross not to be their king. He repeatedly told his followers not to announce him as the king of Israel. He told Pilot that his kingdom was NOT OF THIS WORLD without denying he was the king over that kingdom. Nothing could be further from the truth than the idea that Christ came to establish an earthly kingdom during his ministry over Israel. This is plainly a complete distortion of the Biblical data.

That's why in the tribulation you see that the temple has been rebuilt. Today Paul's message to us is that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

The individual believer's body has always been the temple of the Holy Spirit from Eden to Revelation or they are not his children (Rom. 8:8-9). The temple God destroyed was the VISIBLE PUBLIC HOUSE OF GOD and the temple God replaced it with was the VISIBLE PUBLIC HOUSE OF GOD called the "congregation" that is an assembly of "lively stones" that offers up "acceptable sacrifices" and has a VISIBLE PUBLIC qualified ministry with a VISIBLE PUBLIC qualified ordinances and assembles habitually VISIBLY and PUBLICLY as indicated by the epistles sent and addressed to such VISIBLE and PUBLIC congregations throughout the New Testament world.

The Good News of the Kingdom was repent and be Baptized. (at Pentecost, repent meant "you have crucified your Messiah, repent of this' and He would send back your King! Now, the Good News that we preach and believe is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" and you will be saved. (HIS death and resurrection) A believer under the Kingdom program demonstrated their faith by works. (bringing sacrifices, water baptism, etc.) and many signs followed them that believed. (tongues, healings, handling serpents,etc)..

False again! Paul is still preaching the gospel of the kingdom in Rome at the close of the book of Acts:

Acts 28:300 ¶ And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

We still demonstrate our faith by works and none have ever been justified by works and never will be (Rom. 3:19-20; Gal. 3:10-12). Old Testament saints were justified by faith "without works" in the promise of the coming Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Rom. 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6-8) whereas we are justified by faith "without works" in the promise fulfilled by the coming of Jesus Christ.

Paul disagrees with your whole theology and condemns with his words "NONE OTHER THINGS" in Acts 26:22-23 - read it.

 

[BobRyan]

I looked up the 144,000 in Rev 7.

It says they were sealed. That's it.
It does not say they were zealots, or evangelists, or that they did anything.

Interesting thing: It lists Joseph and his son Mannasseh, but not his son Ephraim, nor the tribe of Dan. And it does not say they are all men.

Revelation 14 speaks of 144,000, who have the Father's name written on the foreheads, who learned a song only they could learn, they were redeemed from the earth, were virgins, and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Are these the same 144,000 of Rev. 7?

I just wonder from whence came the idea that they were evangelists.

It is a bit of story telling from Hal I think.

The only thing we know about the 144,000 is that they are sealed and then ready to pass through the period of the 7 last plagues.

Interestingly - there can be NO evangelism during that period of time because in Rev 15:8 the Sanctuary in Heaven (and thus Christ as our Advocate for forgiveness of sins) is ended just prior to the start of the Plagues. And the Plagues do not start until the 144000 are sealed!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Interestingly - there can be NO evangelism during that period of time because in Rev 15:8 the Sanctuary in Heaven (and thus Christ as our Advocate for forgiveness of sins) is ended just prior to the start of the Plagues. And the Plagues do not start until the 144000 are sealed!

Hogwash! The Jews are saved at the end of this period at the coming of Christ at the battle of Armageddon and it is predicted over and over again (Rom. 11:25-28; Rev. 1:7; Rev. 14:1-6; Zech 12-14; Ezek. 37; etc.).

 

[Dr. Walter]

because in Rev 15:8 the Sanctuary in Heaven (and thus Christ as our Advocate for forgiveness of sins) is ended just prior to the start of the Plagues.

Hogwash! Your investigative judgement teaching is proven to be heresy as the "little horn" of Daniel 8 is a GRECIAN KING and not the little horn of Daniel 7.

They are distinguished as follows:


1. Little horn of Daniel 7 arises out of TEN kings but little horn of Daniel 8 arises "out of one of" the FOUR Grecian kingdoms:

Dan. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.[/COLOR]

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn,


2. Little horn of Daniel 7 is of the FOURTH world kingdom but the little horn of Daniel 8 is "out of" "THE NATION" of Greece the THIRD world kingdom.

Dan. 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Dan. 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The SDA doctrine of investigative judgement is proved heresy as their whole interpretative scheme of the 2300 days as years must originate with the GRECIAN little horn in Chapter 8 which would place it around 2200 AD or another 100 years in the future from us.

Watch how Bob denies "out of" really means "out of" and "the nation" really does not really mean the nation of the he goat and how the words "out of ONE OF THEM" does not really mean one of the four Grecian kingdoms. What how he takes God's word and explains it away to say the very OPPOSITE of what it LITERALLY and EXPLICITLY says.