No Cross? No problem!

[HankD]

Your preference seems to convey the thought. Sin (the preferrence in our nature for it) and the consiquence of death are passed on to us I agree. My only disagreement is that an unborn child has committed wilful sin. That child is corrupt in that it wants to sin but personal guilt is not laid. The only guilt is that of having a nature for it.

Yes thus the doctrine.

again we agree

I agree with that as well. However, I don't take that to mean his flesh was different. His nature certainly is. In that he doesn't have the concupiscence toward sin.

I can say then that we are pretty much in full agreement.

Babies are not guilty of wilful sin as the capacity to will and discern good vs. evil has not fully developed within them. The long-term outcome however is inevitable.

Also we agree that Christ while here in the days of His flesh was subject to all of our human infirmities, hunger, thirst, weariness, etc. - apart from sin.

HankD

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I can say then that we are pretty much in full agreement.

Babies are not guilty of wilful sin as the capacity to will and discern good vs. evil has not fully developed within them. The long-term outcome however is inevitable.

Also we agree that Christ while here in the days of His flesh was subject to all of our human infirmities, hunger, thirst, weariness, etc. - apart from sin.

HankD

:thumbs:......

 

[Winman]

I can say then that we are pretty much in full agreement.

Babies are not guilty of wilful sin as the capacity to will and discern good vs. evil has not fully developed within them. The long-term outcome however is inevitable.

Also we agree that Christ while here in the days of His flesh was subject to all of our human infirmities, hunger, thirst, weariness, etc. - apart from sin.

HankD

We are getting closer now. You agree that the scriptures show Jesus's flesh exactly like ours. Only because he suffered the same infirmities as us could he relate and feel mercy toward us.
But you must still decide if this is what is called "sin nature". I do not like this term, as I cannot conceive of Jesus having a sin nature. I prefer the term used by scripture itself, "flesh". Jesus was born flesh. The flesh cannot be sin because it has no will, it cannot make decisions, it has only lusts and desires. The flesh can draw or pull at the soul of man (James 1:12-15), but only the soul with it's will and intellect can make a choice or decision to sin.
If you agree with this, then you must agree we are not born sinners, but only born flesh with a propensity to sin.

Augustine (and Calvin) taught that sin itself was passed through the flesh. This is not possible, as sin is a moral entity, not physical.

The scriptures also teach that we receive our soul and spirit from God, not our parents. We are made upright, our souls and spirit are pure until they allow themselves to be drawn away and enticed, seduced by the lusts and desires of the flesh. It is only when the soul allows itself to be seduced by the flesh that lust conceives and brings forth sin (James 1:15), which brings forth death.
Jesus did not obey the lust of his flesh, and therefore never sinned.

 

[Amy.G]

Winman, please check out my thread "Sin Nature". Thanks.

 

[Luke2427]

I do understand it...do you think Charlie sinned in biting his brother's finger?
Sin, death and the curse.
He still has the stain of sin in his nature that is at enmity with God, so yes Christ did still dies for him.
N/A

So how is the merit of Christ applied to that baby's soul enabling him to enter Heaven upon death?

 

[webdog]

So how is the merit of Christ applied to that baby's soul enabling him to enter Heaven upon death?

His death took care of sin, death and the curse which affects Charlie.

 

[percho]

We are saved from the wrath of God.

Romans 5:9

New International Version (©1984)
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

New Living Translation (©2007)
And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's condemnation.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Now that we have been justified by his blood, how much more will we be saved from wrath through him!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Since Christ's blood has now given us God's approval, we are even more certain that Christ will save us from God's anger.

King James Bible
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

American King James Version
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

American Standard Version
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Bible in Basic English
Much more, if we now have righteousness by his blood, will salvation from the wrath of God come to us through him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.

Darby Bible Translation
Much rather therefore, having been now justified in the power of his blood, we shall be saved by him from wrath.

English Revised Version
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Webster's Bible Translation
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Weymouth New Testament
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.

World English Bible
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him.

Young's Literal Translation
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

Well I guess I wrongly assumed that being death is the wages of sin and that is what God said would happen upon sinning if it was a sin to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that death is what we are saved from. And if eternal life is the gift of God then we must be saved for life.

Also if the following two verses are true which I believe are then Enoch and Elijah also died which I also believe.
Rom. 5:12,14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Luke2427]

His death took care of sin, death and the curse which affects Charlie.

So does Charlie go to Heaven without FAITH???

You mean to tell me you espouse some mysterious view of salvation that says that one can be saved from the curse without having FAITH?????????

Say it ain't so, Webdog- say it ain't so!

 

[percho]

His death took care of sin, death and the curse which affects Charlie.

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be raised from the dead? What would be the outlook for David the king who had Uriah the Hittite killed because he coveted his wife? What about Charlie and what he has to look forward to?

 

[webdog]

So does Charlie go to Heaven without FAITH???

You mean to tell me you espouse some mysterious view of salvation that says that one can be saved from the curse without having FAITH?????????

Say it ain't so, Webdog- say it ain't so!

Sinners need salvation. Sinners are guilty of sinning. Have I once stated Charlie was guilty?

In the thread I started I showed how all creation will have the veil of sin lifted because of Christ's death. When was the last time you saw a tree have faith, or was deemed a sinner?

 

[webdog]

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be raised from the dead?

To defeat death.

What would be the outlook for David the king who had Uriah the Hittite killed because he coveted his wife? What about Charlie and what he has to look forward to?

Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if they will be separated or in union with God for eternity? If the latter, it's a yes to both.

 

[percho]

So how is the merit of Christ applied to that baby's soul enabling him to enter Heaven upon death?

What is the purpose of this statement by Jesus the Christ if this baby and being it hasn't been determined yet if he was saved or not upon death, we will add Paul have gone to heaven.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

 

[Luke2427]

Sinners need salvation. Sinners are guilty of sinning. Have I once stated Charlie was guilty?

In the thread I started I showed how all creation will have the veil of sin lifted because of Christ's death. When was the last time you saw a tree have faith, or was deemed a sinner?

So babies are sinners and are not saved and go to Heaven anyway?

Or babies are not sinners and do not need to be saved which means they do not need the cross since the cross was for sinners?

OR... babies are sinners in need of a Savior and God Almighty can apply the merit of Christ's blood without them having to believe?

Those are your real options.

Christ did not die for trees.

Christ is going to burn up ALL the trees one day.

Babies are not affected by sin in the same fashion as TREES are affected by sin.

 

[Luke2427]

What is the purpose of this statement by Jesus the Christ if this baby and being it hasn't been determined yet if he was saved or not upon death, we will add Paul have gone to heaven.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

I'm sorry. I have no idea what this means.

 

[webdog]

Luke, just because you give me a handful of options and say "there you go, these are your only ones" does not make it so.

Also, to limit Christ's death to the "elect" only contradicts Scripture. Colossians 1:16-20 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[percho]

To defeat death.
Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if they will be separated or in union with God for eternity? If the latter, it's a yes to both.

If he had not defeated death by being raised from the dead where would he be today being he was the Word made flesh lower than the angels for the suffering of death and died? What does Paul say in 1 Cor. 15?

Would not his soul still be in hell and his body would have seen corruption?

If the wages of sin is death which leads to corruption is there any life shown to be given outside the resurrection from the dead in the word of God?

 

[percho]

I'm sorry. I have no idea what this means.

Why is he coming to receive someone who is already there? John 14:3 is speaking of the second coming is it not?

 

[webdog]

If he had not defeated death by being raised from the dead where would he be today being he was the Word made flesh lower than the angels for the suffering of death and died? What does Paul say in 1 Cor. 15?

I cannot wrap my mind around hypotheticals...just like I cannot fully grasp Adam's access to the tree of life needed to be guarded.

If the wages of sin is death which leads to corruption is there any life shown to be given outside the resurrection from the dead in the word of God?

I'm sorry, I'm still not following you here.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, just because you give me a handful of options and say "there you go, these are your only ones" does not make it so.

Also, to limit Christ's death to the "elect" only contradicts Scripture. Colossians 1:16-20 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

No, webdog, Christ dying for TREES is not a real option.

Christ died for sin and sinners.

He earned the keys to earth by dying upon the cross (Rev 5:1-7)- he didn't die FOR the earth.

Because he died he had the right to rule the earth that he delegated to Adam who lost it to Satan. This is why the Great Commission says, "All authority has been given unto me in heaven and earth..."

To have Christ dying for trees and babies only being affected by sin in the same manner TREES are affected by sin is quite wrong.

 

[percho]

Death was appointed to all born in the likeness of the first man Adam and it was appointed before he sinned. Adam was created a living soul so he could die.
Not only was death appointed before he sinned it was appointed before he was created that the Word made flesh after the likeness of Adam the Lamb of God would be slain.

The Word made flesh: God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. but Jesus was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

When God created Adam he had a plan and it did not depend on what Adam did or did not do.