Sin Nature?

[DHK]

DHK, our views are similar, though not exact. I agree we are body, soul, and spirit. We do inherit our body from our parents, that is obvious, we resemble our parents. And our bodies have natural lusts and desires. It is also obvious we inherit the curse from Adam, as all die.
But our soul and spirit come from God, the scriptures say so.

Everything we have is from God. I wouldn't say anything different.

Where we differ is saying man is born spiritually dead. That is an illogical impossibility, nothing can be dead that was not once living.

Perhaps your confusion is in the definition of death. What does "dead" mean. It merely means "separation." That is the Biblical definition. A man is separated from God until he is born again, or until he is regenerated. If you assume that death means not breathing or no physical life, then you assume wrong. Death means separation, thus your statement: Nothing can be separated (dead) that was not once "not separated" (living) does not make sense, does it?

Rocks are not considered dead, they are non-living. We say a stillborn child is born dead, but it had life for a time.

When you start with a flawed premise (or definition) you end up with a flawed conclusion. This is what is called non sequitor.

I believe we are born alive and innocent as Adam and Eve were created. This is not unorthodox, many of the early church fathers before Augustine held this view.

Physically alive; spiritually dead.

The scriptures support this. Did the prodigal son begin dead?

The prodigal son, was just that: "prodigal." He was a son. He had gone astray. It is not a good illustration to prove your point.

No, he began alive until he willingly left his father's home and went astray. It was when he willingly fell into sin that he became filthy and died.

So you don't believe in eternal security of the believer.

He joined himself to a citizen of that country (Satan). Even so, he was able to repent and return to his father. When he did, his father said he was alive again.

He was dead spiritually in the sense that his sin had separated him from his fellowship with God. He was made alive in that his repentance had restored him back into fellowship with God (as represented by the father). He was his son, a believer. It speaks of the repentance of a believer.

1 Peter 2:25 and many other scriptures support my view:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but now are RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your SOULS.
A sheep that did not first belong to a flock cannot go astray, and you cannot RETURN to Jesus if you were not first with him.
This view was not unorthodox among many early church fathers, but became so after Augustine.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. It doesn't make sense to me. Man is born a sinner. He needs to be born again. It is a simple concept taught in the Scriptures.

 

[Winman]

Everything we have is from God. I wouldn't say anything different.
Perhaps your confusion is in the definition of death. What does "dead" mean. It merely means "separation." That is the Biblical definition. A man is separated from God until he is born again, or until he is regenerated. If you assume that death means not breathing or no physical life, then you assume wrong. Death means separation, thus your statement: Nothing can be separated (dead) that was not once "not separated" (living) does not make sense, does it?
Physically alive; spiritually dead.
The prodigal son, was just that: "prodigal." He was a son. He had gone astray. It is not a good illustration to prove your point.
He was dead spiritually in the sense that his sin had separated him from his fellowship with God. He was made alive in that his repentance had restored him back into fellowship with God (as represented by the father). He was his son, a believer. It speaks of the repentance of a believer.

Yes, man needs to be born again, born of the Spirit. Our original spirit is ours. Through sin we become dead or separated as you say. When we receive Christ our original soul is washed clean (we were in the pig sty), and we come into union with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Being in union with the Holy Spirit we can never be separated from God again.
Anyone who looks at the scriptures without bias can see the scriptures show man starts originally with God but departs or GOES ASTRAY. The scriptures say we have TURNED to our own way.
The scriptures say this so often I do not understand how folks do not see it. In the three parables in Luke 15 Jesus described things that once belonged to their owner but either went astray or were lost. And it is clear he is speaking of sinners repenting, salvation.

 

[DHK]

Yes, man needs to be born again, born of the Spirit. Our original spirit is ours. Through sin we become dead or separated as you say. When we receive Christ our original soul is washed clean (we were in the pig sty), and we come into union with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Being in union with the Holy Spirit we can never be separated from God again.

No problem here.

Anyone who looks at the scriptures without bias can see the scriptures show man starts originally with God but departs or GOES ASTRAY. The scriptures say we have TURNED to our own way.
The scriptures say this so often I do not understand how folks do not see it. In the three parables in Luke 15 Jesus described things that once belonged to their owner but either went astray or were lost. And it is clear he is speaking of sinners repenting, salvation.

No, the prodigal son is a believer gone astray. He is a son.

Thus you are the one reading these Scriptures with bias.
We are born:
--outside of the family of God,
--children of the devil, with the devil as our father (John 8:44)
--children of wrath
--children of disobedience
--walked according to the prince of the power of the air
--and in fact, our very nature is described as the nature of the children of wrath. We were born with it. That is not an innocent nature. It is guilty, guilty with sin. It is depraved.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--The Ethiopian (a black man) is born that way.
The leopard is born with spots, not with stripes.
Both of them cannot become white or with stripes, or cannot by reformation or religious rites, or baptism or by any other method change who they are. They will always be that way.

So will you. You are born evil. You are accustomed to it. You cannot do good, unless you are born again.

 

[Amy.G]

No problem here.

No, the prodigal son is a believer gone astray. He is a son.

Thus you are the one reading these Scriptures with bias.
We are born:
--outside of the family of God,
--children of the devil, with the devil as our father (John 8:44)
--children of wrath
--children of disobedience
--walked according to the prince of the power of the air
--and in fact, our very nature is described as the nature of the children of wrath. We were born with it. That is not an innocent nature. It is guilty, guilty with sin. It is depraved.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--The Ethiopian (a black man) is born that way.
The leopard is born with spots, not with stripes.
Both of them cannot become white or with stripes, or cannot by reformation or religious rites, or baptism or by any other method change who they are. They will always be that way.

So will you. You are born evil. You are accustomed to it. You cannot do good, unless you are born again.

DHK, how can an infant be born again? Or do you believe as I do that they are not held accountable?

 

[DHK]

DHK, how can an infant be born again? Or do you believe as I do that they are not held accountable?

How can an infant have faith?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

This is the dilemma that some hyper-Calvinists find themselves in.
Only the elect can be saved and certain infants cannot be saved because they can never be regenerated and never will be part of the elect.

However, it is my belief that God in His mercy will take infants to heaven. He is longsuffering and merciful. We see that through the death of the infant of David. David expected to see his infant in heaven. I have no reason to believe that any infant would not go to heaven only because of the mercy of God.

That does not negate that we are all born with a sin nature.

 

[Winman]

DHK, we will have to agree to disagree, the scriptures never call a believer "dead".
But the scriptures repeatedly call for men to RETURN to God.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him RETURN unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
You cannot RETURN to someplace or someone you have never been with in the first place.
There are literally dozens of verses like this.

 

[DHK]

DHK, we will have to agree to disagree, the scriptures never call a believer "dead".
But the scriptures repeatedly call for men to RETURN to God.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him RETURN unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
You cannot RETURN to someplace or someone you have never been with in the first place.
There are literally dozens of verses like this.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)
--Separation means death--spiritual death.
When a believer allows sin to separate him from God, God will not hear, and he becomes spiritually dead.

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--The Lord does not hear because you are spiritually dead.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
--If there is unconfessed sin in the believers life there is no fellowship. No fellowship, no real spiritual life, and thus spiritual death.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)
--This is addressed to believers. A believer can walk in darkness. He does so when he sins; when he has unconfessed sin. That is when he is spiritually dead. His fellowship with God is cut off until he repents and that life with God is restored once again. He has not lost his salvation; he has lost his fellowship with God. He needs to repent of the sin that is hindering his walk with God, that is keeping him separated from God (spiritually dead).

 

[Amy.G]

How can an infant have faith?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

This is the dilemma that some hyper-Calvinists find themselves in.
Only the elect can be saved and certain infants cannot be saved because they can never be regenerated and never will be part of the elect.

However, it is my belief that God in His mercy will take infants to heaven. He is longsuffering and merciful. We see that through the death of the infant of David. David expected to see his infant in heaven. I have no reason to believe that any infant would not go to heaven only because of the mercy of God.

That does not negate that we are all born with a sin nature.

I agree. Thanks.

 

[BobinKy]

I also agree.

...Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Bob, where do you get your pics? I need a good site for some stuff I have to do for church.

 

[Winman]

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)
--Separation means death--spiritual death.
When a believer allows sin to separate him from God, God will not hear, and he becomes spiritually dead.

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--The Lord does not hear because you are spiritually dead.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
--If there is unconfessed sin in the believers life there is no fellowship. No fellowship, no real spiritual life, and thus spiritual death.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)
--This is addressed to believers. A believer can walk in darkness. He does so when he sins; when he has unconfessed sin. That is when he is spiritually dead. His fellowship with God is cut off until he repents and that life with God is restored once again. He has not lost his salvation; he has lost his fellowship with God. He needs to repent of the sin that is hindering his walk with God, that is keeping him separated from God (spiritually dead).

I agree with this except for the part about being dead. A believer is never said to be dead. The Lord chastises a believer, they are still his son.

You cannot be separated from God under any circumstance once you are a believer, Jesus said he would never leave us (Heb 13:5). We are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I agree with this except for the part about being dead. A believer is never said to be dead. The Lord chastises a believer, they are still his son.

You cannot be separated from God under any circumstance once you are a believer, Jesus said he would never leave us. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

And add an "amen" from Wyoming on that. I WAS dead but not since the holy Spirit regenerated me I AM alive in Christ. And this life is eternal.

 

[BobinKy]

Bob, where do you get your pics? I need a good site for some stuff I have to do for church.

It is pretty easy to paste pics in Baptist Board (up to 4 pics per post).

For example, I went to Google and entered in the search bar: Mercy of God Images. And a webpage of images appeared on a new screen. These work great for pasting in Baptist Board posts and Microsoft Word files.

For Baptist Board posts, I right click on the image (such as the little boy in the hands of God) and paste them with the Insert Image icon (mountain scene) across the top in the Baptist Board icons at the top of the post.

For Microsoft Word, I right click on the image and select copy image, then paste that image on a Word file.

You can also use the same process for e-mail and probably for whatever program you use for your church communications.

. . .

Now you have to be careful because some of the Google Images are not acceptable for church or family communications.

. . .

Try this search string: East Tennessee Churches Images

and this string: Christian women Images

and this string: Women Bible Study Images

And so on.

Let me know how it works for you.



...Bob

 

[BobinKy]

Here are some interesting images from the search string: East Tennessee Country Churches Images

Gotta go--getting late--hope this works for you.

...Bob

 

[BobinKy]

And if you want to get cartoons, use this search string: East Tennessee Country Churches Cartoon Images

Country Lady--you are on your own--brighten up those church communications!!!

Hey--send me a bulletin sometime (if you church has bulletins).

...Bob

 

[DHK]

And add an "amen" from Wyoming on that. I WAS dead but not since the holy Spirit regenerated me I AM alive in Christ. And this life is eternal.

Sin separates a believer from God spiritually. The Bible says his prayers will not be heard. He no longer walks with God. His fellowship with God is broken. That is separation.
At the same time he is always His child. He will never lose his salvation.

When a child sins there is a separation that comes between the child and the parent that can only be restored by the child's willingness to repent. If he is rebellious and does not repent he will remain distant and aloof from his parents. If he repents his fellowship is restored. No matter what he is still a son. Nothing can change that fact. But sin can separate the two.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)

 

[quantumfaith]

Sin separates a believer from God spiritually. The Bible says his prayers will not be heard. He no longer walks with God. His fellowship with God is broken. That is separation.
At the same time he is always His child. He will never lose his salvation.

When a child sins there is a separation that comes between the child and the parent that can only be restored by the child's willingness to repent. If he is rebellious and does not repent he will remain distant and aloof from his parents. If he repents his fellowship is restored. No matter what he is still a son. Nothing can change that fact. But sin can separate the two.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Sin separates a believer from God spiritually. The Bible says his prayers will not be heard. He no longer walks with God. His fellowship with God is broken. That is separation.
At the same time he is always His child. He will never lose his salvation.

When a child sins there is a separation that comes between the child and the parent that can only be restored by the child's willingness to repent. If he is rebellious and does not repent he will remain distant and aloof from his parents. If he repents his fellowship is restored. No matter what he is still a son. Nothing can change that fact. But sin can separate the two.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Isaiah 59:2)

DHK, I fully agree that when a believer sins that fellowship is broken, in modern language I would say we are "not on speaking terms".
But the Lord never leaves a believer.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
When a true believer sins, fellowship is broken, but the Holy Spirit never leaves a believer. A true believer cannot live in continuous sin because it grieves the Holy Spirit inside him. The most miserable person on earth is a true believer caught up in sin.
If you see someone living in continuous sin that seems happy, that is probably not a true believer. And God does not let true believers stray too far from the flock, he might reach out and give us a sound beating with his rod to reign us in.
That verse I showed in Isa 55:7 are not believers, we know this because they are called "the wicked" and "the unrighteous", terms never used for a believer. Yet God calls them to RETURN to him.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I fully agree that when a believer sins that fellowship is broken, in modern language I would say we are "not on speaking terms".
But the Lord never leaves a believer.

Please read what I post, and uncover your eyes.
I emphatically said that the Lord does not leave the believer; he does not lose his salvation; it has nothing to do with eternal security; the son is always the child of the Father. How much more clear can I be.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But you sin, don't you. So you are taking this verse out of context. I never used this verse or the context it is put in.

When a true believer sins, fellowship is broken, but the Holy Spirit never leaves a believer. A true believer cannot live in continuous sin because it grieves the Holy Spirit inside him. The most miserable person on earth is a true believer caught up in sin.

And I posted as such. Why don't you agree with me? This is what I posted.

If you see someone living in continuous sin that seems happy, that is probably not a true believer. And God does not let true believers stray too far from the flock, he might reach out and give us a sound beating with his rod to reign us in.

But that is not what I posted. Why the red herrings?

That verse I showed in Isa 55:7 are not believers, we know this because they are called "the wicked" and "the unrighteous", terms never used for a believer. Yet God calls them to RETURN to him.

Rather look at the context:

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Isaiah 59:19-21)
It is speaking of Israel, God's called out people, His redeemed for that age. They are his people. His covenant is with them. That is the covenant. What breaks fellowship? Sin does.

 

[Winman]

Please read what I post, and uncover your eyes.
I emphatically said that the Lord does not leave the believer; he does not lose his salvation; it has nothing to do with eternal security; the son is always the child of the Father. How much more clear can I be.

Yes, but you said this is "spiritual death". I would disagree with this term, we do not pass into and out of spiritual life every time we sin. Once you are born again, you have spiritual life forever.

But you sin, don't you. So you are taking this verse out of context. I never used this verse or the context it is put in.

Of course I sin, that is not the point, the point is that the Holy Spirit never leaves the believer, the believer does not experience "spiritual death" every time he sins. If this were so, if you died while sinning without a chance to repent, you would lose your salvation. This is what Pentacostals believe.

Rather look at the context:

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Isaiah 59:19-21)
It is speaking of Israel, God's called out people, His redeemed for that age. They are his people. His covenant is with them. That is the covenant. What breaks fellowship? Sin does.

Yes, and two verses earlier he shows he is also speaking of the Gentiles.

Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

In fact, note the first verse and how similar it is to Rev 22:17

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You cannot limit these verses to the Jews only.