The use of the term "law" in Romans 2:27

[Dr. Walter]

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Some of you fellas do not understand the term "FREE" but think it is some kind of price tag that you must PAY for! FREE means there is no cost and if something is given to you FREE you cannot boast in EARNING it!

Paul just finished explaing what God has provided "FREELY by his grace" in Roman 3:24-26

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The Greek term translated "freely" is also translated "without a cause" in the New Testament where the enemies of Christ hated him "without a cause" in him.

Here it follows the declaration in Romans 3:23 that condemns all men as sinners and all coming short of the glory of God or those who do have CAUSE IN THEM to be condemned and rejected by God. It is to such that HAVE NO CAUSE IN THEM to be justified by God that Paul says we who were formerly "sinners" were "justified FREELY" or without a cause in us by what God provided in Christ for sinners. "FREELY" modifies "by his grace" describing the kind of grace that justifies sinners is WITHOUT A CAUSE in the sinner.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

That is precisely why he asks the question in Romans 3:27 - WHERE IS BOASTING THEN? If something is obtained FREELY without a cause in the sinner but all due to the cause in God's provision received by faith, then, where is any grounds for boasting????? NONE! Unless your GOOD WORKS can be found as the cause of justification?

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Paul now considers "works" in regard to it as a "law" or essence of what it is that defines it in contrast to faith and what it is by essence that defines it in contrast to works. They are placed in contrast with each other not complimentary or synegistically. One INCLUDES boasting by its very defined essence or "law" that defines it while the other EXCLUDES boasting by its very defined essence or "law" that defines it.

Absolute proof that this is how Paul is dealing with"works" and "faith as what they are by defined essence or "law" is that Paul continues with this "boasting" question in Romans 4:1-5 where the essence or law of works is defined as follows:

1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

However, what God provided is "FREELY BY GRACE" - Rom. 3:24. Hence, works by essence or what defines them is contrary to grace because if you work for someone or something it makes the one you worked for INDEBTED to you.

Moreover, Paul defines "faith" in regard to its essence that defines it in regard to justification "FREELY BY HIS GRACE"

1. It is contrary to and without works:

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

2. It is without obedience to divine ordinances:

9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

3. It is without Law keeping -Rom. 4:13-15

4. It is of grace - Rom. 4:16

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[/COLOR]


5. It is the kind of faith that is without personal participation with God in obtaining the promise of justification - Rom. 4;16-21

God waited until both Abraham and Sarah were "dead" concerning any ability to assist or ACTIVELY participate in the birth of Isaac:

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Verse 21 defines the LAW or ESSENCE of faith in justification - it is the full persuasion in the heart that God ALONE performs what God promises in the gospel as this is directly applied to the gospel in verse 22-25:

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

If it is of grace it is no longer of works otherwise grace is no more grace (Rom. 11:6) and we are justified "FREELY BY HIS GRACE" or grace that is not based upon any cause in us! It is based solely upon the cause found in God's provision in Christ's life and death FOR US (Rom. 4:23-25).

 

[Dr. Walter]

A. The "law" of works is spelled out in Romans 4:4


Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

You cannot say that verse 4 describes the Law of Moses! It describes the "law" of works as it defines what works are by essence and nature in regard to grace and reward.

It is very simple, if justification is obtained or gained by "works" then God OWES that person and makes God a DEBTOR to those works. Therefore "works" by their very nature is a rejection of Grace but justification before God is "FREELY BY GRACE."


B. The "law" of faith in regard to justification is spelled out in Romans 4:21

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

By context "faith is of grace" (v. 16) and the promise of justication by faith "without works" is illustrated by context in the birth of Isaac. God waited until Abraham and Sarah could not ACTIVELY contribute or participate in obtaining that promise. Their "faith" is restricted to the confines of their heart and is the full persuasion of their heart that what God promised he was able also to perform it. The promise of justification "freely by grace" is received through THIS KIND OF FAITH as it is directly applied to the gospel provision and promise of Jesus Christ in Romans 4:22-25

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The gospel of JEsus Christ has nothing to do with what you do or will provide FOR GOD but what God provides and does in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ. Justifying faith RECEIVES a finished substitutionary work by Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law!

Rom 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the doers of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED".

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

1John 2:4-7 "The one one who says 'I have come to know HIM' and yet does not keep His Commandments is a liar".

1John 2:1 - "These things I write to you that you sin not".

Rom 8:5
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 8 -
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law!

Rom 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the doers of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED".

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

1John 2:4-7 "The one one who says 'I have come to know HIM' and yet does not keep His Commandments is a liar".

1John 2:1 - "These things I write to you that you sin not".

Rom 8:5
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 8 -
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

in Christ,

Bob

This is your modus operandi! You simply jerk texts out of context to use as proof text that are nothing but pretext.

You cannot respond intelligently to the evidence I placed before you. I don't blame you for responding the way you have here. That is the only defense you have because you cannot deal with the evidence I provided in an intelligent manner so you just quote texts out of context hoping to confuse the reader and change the subject. All the traits of a heretic.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term "law" as used by Paul in Romans 3:27 means what is by nature the definitive essence of "works" versus "faith."

The nature of "works" is "doing" things that place the person you are doing these things for in your debt (Rom. 4:4) and therefore "works" by nature are contrary to grace and "faith is of grace" (Rom. 4:16). Therefore justification by faith must be "without works" (Rom. 3:28). This is true equally for the Jew as well as for the Gentile (Rom. 3:29-30) as justification by faith is the ONLY WAY that the Law of of God can be completely satisfied in behalf of the sinner (v. 31) as only the Person and works of Jesus Christ actually and fully is the "propitiation" (Rom. 3:25) or full satisfaction of the Law's demands. Hence, there is no other way to honor, validate, satisfy the Law of God but by the personal works of Jesus Christ and that is IMPUTED to us by faith (Rom. 4:5-6; 22-25).

This is why the "law" of "works cannot be harmonized with the "law of faith" as means of justification as the former INCLUDES boasting but the latter EXCLUDES all boasting because who can boast of being justified "FREELY BY HIS GRACE"????? None!

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

A. The "law" of works is spelled out in Romans 4:4


Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

You cannot say that verse 4 describes the Law of Moses! It describes the "law" of works as it defines what works are by essence and nature in regard to grace and reward.

It is very simple, if justification is obtained or gained by "works" then God OWES that person and makes God a DEBTOR to those works. Therefore "works" by their very nature is a rejection of Grace but justification before God is "FREELY BY GRACE."


B. The "law" of faith in regard to justification is spelled out in Romans 4:21

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

By context "faith is of grace" (v. 16) and the promise of justication by faith "without works" is illustrated by context in the birth of Isaac. God waited until Abraham and Sarah could not ACTIVELY contribute or participate in obtaining that promise. Their "faith" is restricted to the confines of their heart and is the full persuasion of their heart that what God promised he was able also to perform it. The promise of justification "freely by grace" is received through THIS KIND OF FAITH as it is directly applied to the gospel provision and promise of Jesus Christ in Romans 4:22-25

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The gospel of JEsus Christ has nothing to do with what you do or will provide FOR GOD but what God provides and does in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ. Justifying faith RECEIVES a finished substitutionary work by Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Let us look at the use of the term Law in Rom 2:27

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now let's contrast that to the law in Rom 3:27

Rom 3

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

It is the same law. In Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the mechanism for a lost person becoming a saved saint. But in Romans 2 Paul is speaking of the perseverance of the saints.


You cannot use Romans 3 to hatchet Romans 2. Both the justification event for the lost sinner AND the Perseverance doctrine for the saved saint are affirmed in Romans 2.

Those who wish to employ a slice and dice - hatchet out the text, model for scripture are operating with less scripture than is required for success.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob, you have two different contexts speaking about two different things and you cannot merge them as though they are talking about the same thing as you have done!

Romans 3:27-4:2 addresses the issue of what "law" promotes versus excludes boasting whereas Romans 2:27-29 addresses why circumcision does not make the Jew better than the Gentile - because the Jew does not keep the rest of the law.


Of course you do not care what the context is about, you only care to rip texts out of context and merge them to suit your heresy.

Let us look at the use of the term Law in Rom 2:27

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now let's contrast that to the law in Rom 3:27

Rom 3

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

It is the same law. In Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the mechanism for a lost person becoming a saved saint. But in Romans 2 Paul is speaking of the perseverance of the saints.


You cannot use Romans 3 to hatchet Romans 2. Both the justification event for the lost sinner AND the Perseverance doctrine for the saved saint are affirmed in Romans 2.

Those who wish to employ a slice and dice - hatchet out the text, model for scripture are operating with less scripture than is required for success.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The "law of faith" is spelled out in Romans 1:17 by the words "from faith to faith." The prepositions "ek" and "eis" demonstrate that justification is restricted to the sphere of faith. It originates in faith (ek) and terminates with faith (eis). The law is excluded from the sphere of faith (Gal. 3:12 "The law is not of (ek) of faith"). Works are excluded from the sphere of faith "justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS of the law.....without works" - Rom. 3:28; 4:6.

The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel in the Person of Jesus Christ who is the object of faith. Faith embraces the righteousness of God provided in the Person and work of Christ to the exclusion of our own good works as Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Rom. 10:3-4). Good works are the consquences regeneration (Eph. 2:10) but never the object of faith for justification.

 

[Andre]

Faith embraces the righteousness of God provided in the Person and work of Christ to the exclusion of our own good works as Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Rom. 10:3-4).

In Romans 10:3-4, Paul indeed declares the end of "the law". However, he is clearly writing about the Law of Moses and critiquing a Jewish belief that membership in God's family is limited to Jews. And what is it that marks out the Jew from the Gentile? Answer: the Law of Moses.

So the fact that Paul strongly denies that the Law of Moses is the basis for "righteousness" does not mean that Paul is denying what he affirms in Romans 2 - that "good works" are indeed central to final salvation.

You are, as many do, taking Pauline references to the specific written code of the Law of Moses, and generalizing such references to include all "good works". I see no justification (pun intended) for such a move.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 10:3-4, Paul indeed declares the end of "the law". However, he is clearly writing about the Law of Moses and critiquing a Jewish belief that membership in God's family is limited to Jews. And what is it that marks out the Jew from the Gentile? Answer: the Law of Moses.

So the fact that Paul strongly denies that the Law of Moses is the basis for "righteousness" does not mean that Paul is denying what he affirms in Romans 2 - that "good works" are indeed central to final salvation.

You are, as many do, taking Pauline references to the specific written code of the Law of Moses, and generalizing such references to include all "good works". I see no justification (pun intended) for such a move.

God does not have TWO different standards for righteousness! His righteousness is singular. His righteousness is the standard for good within his universe! The same standard revealed in the law of Moses (Rom. 3:21) is the same standard written upon the conscience of the gentile (Rom. 2:15) and it is the same standard witnessed by the prophets (Rom. 3:21) in their prediction of the coming Lamb of God (Rom. 3:21; Acts 10:42) who fulfilled that same standard in his own personal life of good works as no sin could be found in him, he did no sin and he was without sin.

Now this SINGULAR standard of righteousness is the righteousness that sinners must measure up to in order to enter the kingdom of God (Mt. 5:20) and it equals the righteousness of God Himself (Mt. 5:48).

The Gentile cannot measure up to it as he violates the standard of his own conscience. The Jew cannot measure up to it as he violates the standard revealed in the Law of Moses and therefore both Jew and Gentile are under sin as defined by the same righteous standard of God regardless if it is revealed in the Law of Moses, the conscience or manifested in the life of Christ (Rom. 3:9-18) and "no flesh" can be justified by that standard in the sight of God, and the "whole world" is condemned by that standard (Rom. 3:19-20).

So to suggest that ANYONE can attain to that standard by their own "good works" and thus be regarded by God's standard as "good" is to suggest they are as good as God but the Bible denies there is such a man (Rom. 3:10-11; Gal. 3:10-11).

The only way to attain that standard is "by faith" in Christ's personal good works or righteousnesses in the place of yours and in Christ's death paying the penalty of your sin in the place of you paying that penalty (2 Cor. 5:21).

Andre and many others on this forum do not under stand this simple but profound Bibical truth about the righteousness of God.

You speak ignorantly because you pervert the very text you refer to. You cannot jerk Romans 10:3-4 out of its context. The immediate context begins in Romans 9:30 and does not conclude until 10:10 and it begins with the GENTILES which you want to exclude.

1. The immediate context begins with the righteousness of God (9:30-31).

2. The Jew sought "the righteousness of God" through the Law of Moses whereas the Gentiles obtained "the righteousness of God" by faith but the SAME righteousness of God (9:30-32).

Here is the crux of your problem! The law of righteousness is God's righteous standard given to the Jew to distinguish between right and wrong or good and bad "WORKS." To seek the righteousness through the law of Moses is to seek it thorugh what God's law defines as "good" works in contrast to what the law defines as bad "works." Only a fool would attempt to seek the righteousness of God through what the Law defines as "bad" works or sin! Hence, "the works of the law" was what the Mosaic law defined as GOOD or righteous works.

The Jew could not do "good" as defined and demanded by the "works of the law" because the law would not justify the doer of its good works unless they were doing those works perpetually without fail in every point (Gal. 3:10; James 2:10) hence "no flesh" could be justified by the law but only come under the "curse" or condemnation of the Law (Gal. 3:10).

In contrast the Gentile was not given the law of righteousness or the Mosaic law but obtain the righteousness of God by faith in Christ as the end of the law for righteosness. Romans 10:4 does not say that "Christ is the law for righteousness to THE JEWS" but to "EVERY ONE" that believeth.

What this text condemns is trying to obtain the righteousness of God through personal "good works" especially the good "works" as defined by the only written Law of righteousness ever given to men.


30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 10:3-4, Paul indeed declares the end of "the law". However, he is clearly writing about the Law of Moses and critiquing a Jewish belief that membership in God's family is limited to Jews. And what is it that marks out the Jew from the Gentile? Answer: the Law of Moses.

So the fact that Paul strongly denies that the Law of Moses is the basis for "righteousness" does not mean that Paul is denying what he affirms in Romans 2 - that "good works" are indeed central to final salvation.

You are, as many do, taking Pauline references to the specific written code of the Law of Moses, and generalizing such references to include all "good works". I see no justification (pun intended) for such a move.

God does not have TWO different standards for righteousness! His righteousness is singular. His righteousness is the standard for good within his universe! The same standard revealed in the law of Moses (Rom. 3:21) is the same standard written upon the conscience of the gentile (Rom. 2:15) and it is the same standard witnessed by the prophets (Rom. 3:21) in their prediction of the coming Lamb of God (Rom. 3:21; Acts 10:42) who fulfilled that same standard in his own personal life of good works as no sin could be found in him, he did no sin and he was without sin.

Now this SINGULAR standard of righteousness is the righteousness that sinners must measure up to in order to enter the kingdom of God (Mt. 5:20) and it equals the righteousness of God Himself (Mt. 5:48).

The Gentile cannot measure up to it as he violates the standard of his own conscience. The Jew cannot measure up to it as he violates the standard revealed in the Law of Moses and therefore both Jew and Gentile are under sin as defined by the same righteous standard of God regardless if it is revealed in the Law of Moses, the conscience or manifested in the life of Christ (Rom. 3:9-18) and "no flesh" can be justified by that standard in the sight of God, and the "whole world" is condemned by that standard (Rom. 3:19-20).

So to suggest that ANYONE can attain to that standard by their own "good works" and thus be regarded by God's standard as "good" is to suggest they are as good as God but the Bible denies there is such a man (Rom. 3:10-11; Gal. 3:10-11).

The only way to attain that standard is "by faith" in Christ's personal good works or righteousnesses in the place of yours and in Christ's death paying the penalty of your sin in the place of you paying that penalty (2 Cor. 5:21).

Andre and many others on this forum do not under stand this simple but profound Bibical truth about the righteousness of God.

You cannot obtain that righteous standard by your own personal DOING but only by BELIEVING that Christ provided that STANDARD of righteousness in his OWN LIFE for you and thus is the END of the law of righteousness to EVERYONE that believeth. Justifying faith does not ask WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP Christ (Rom. 10:5-7) but rather it is the word of FAITH that is IN YOUR HEART and it is OBEDIENCE of the heart to the truth of the gospel that reveals Christ has SATISFIED the righteous standard for God FOR YOU and IN YOUR PLACE and nothing is left but for the heart to OBEY that truth by SUBMITTING to it as YOUR ONLY HOPE of salvation and your mouth to PROFESS IT as your only hope of salvation (Rom. 10:8-10).

 

[Andre]

God does not have TWO different standards for righteousness! His righteousness is singular.

You are essentially begging the question, presuming that Paul is concerned with matters of "good works" righteousness. I assert, and have argued in the past and am prepared to argue yet again, that Paul is simply not critiquing any kind of "good works" righteousness - he is instead critiquing ethnic exclusivism - the belief of the Jew that God's graces are limted to them Jews and Jews alone. We get a very clear that this is indeed what Paul is concerned with in the very text at issue:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own,

There you have it, a rather clear hint that Paul sees the Jew as thinking they have "special status". This is an ethnic critique, not a "good works" critique.

The reformers had some very legitimate concerns about people in their day thinking you could "earn" your way to heaven, as it were. But I suggest they made a mistake in projecting their particular concern, of their particular time, back into Paul. If we listen to Paul, over and over again in Romans, if not Galatians, we see a critique of ethno-centricity, not good works.

We need to let Paul speak for himself and not project concerns of our day back onto the text and damage it accordingly.

In the case of the Romans 10 text, the fact that Paul sees the Jew as trying to establish their own righteousness finds no satisfactory explanation on the model you are proposing, precisely because pursuit of good works is equally available to the Gentile. However, on the view that I am proposing, Paul would be expected to say precisely what he says - the Jews are trying to establish a righteousness for themselves, to the exclusion of Gentiles.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are essentially begging the question, presuming that Paul is concerned with matters of "good works" righteousness.

I am not begging the question at all! Your position is irrational and rediculous! Righteousness is not some abstract idea whether we are talking about the Law of righteousness given to Moses, or about the rule of conscience, or the righteousness fulfilled in the life of Christ. Righteous obedience before God finds its ONLY concrete application is actual "works" that are either defined by God's righteousness revealed in that particular revealed standard to be "good" or to be "bad." That is the function of ANY LAW of righteousness including the Mosaic law.

If we are talking about that ONE RIGHTEOUS standard revealed through conscience, it has its concrete manifestation through "WORKS" which are either APPROVED or DISAPPROVED by that standard. It functions as a standard of righteousness according to ONE STANDARD or God's righteousness.

If we are talking about that ONE RIGHTEOUS standard revealed in written form as the Law of Moses it has its only concrete manifestation in "WORKS" which are either defined as "good" or "bad" that that standard which is merely another manifestation of ONE STANDARD or God's righteousness.

The Jew understood this perfectly and it was and still is their belief (orthodox Jew) that doing the righteousness of the Law is doing the righteousness of God in concrete form by doing the "works of the law." No person in their right mind would defend the idea that justification "by the works of the law" refers to BAD works but rather to those works that the law defines as "good" and no person in their right mind should deny that the Law of Moses is the manifestion of GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS just as the law written in conscience or the righteousness manifest in the life of Christ = ALL EQUALLY ARE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE ONE STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS FOUND IN GOD.

I assert, and have argued in the past and am prepared to argue yet again, that Paul is simply not critiquing any kind of "good works" righteousness - he is instead critiquing ethnic exclusivism - the belief of the Jew that God's graces are limted to them Jews and Jews alone. We get a very clear that this is indeed what Paul is concerned with in the very text at issue:

Absolutely false! You strain at gnats while swallowing a camel of error. By the very nature of the Mosaic law it separates a people by certain works that MUST NECESSARILY define it AS A PECULIAR culture among men. However, the same is true for the commandments of Christ and the apostles unique to New Testament Christians (2 Pet. 2:9). That is the necessary consequence of "good works" defined by the law of Moses - it produces a culture distinct and different from the rest of the world. However, that is simply the consequence whereas the standard of righteousness is designed first and foremost to define what is "good" in God's sight versus what is "bad" and that definition finds its concrete manifestation in "good works" as it is these "good works" that ultimately define and distinguish such a culture among men.

To be a Jew was to be conformed to that standard of righteousness revealed in the law of Moses. However, that conformation was never actual and literal but purely superficial and false. Why? Because the Law of Moses was never designed by God to justify anyone or reward anyone with eternal life but rather to reveal the righteousness of God that defined "bad" versus "good" works in order to expose all their attempts to conform to the "works of the law" or GOOD WORKS as failures! The law of Moses was designed to reveal the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN and prove they were incapable of doing "GOOD" works by God's Standard of Righteousness which demands SINLESS WORKS in order to be recognized as "good" enough by the Law.

Here is the area of IGNORANCE that Paul speaks of in Romans 10:1-3. They ignorantly believed they could do "good" works by the Mosaic law's definition of "good" versus "bad." They IGNORANTLY went about doing such works believing they were GOOD enough to justify them before God and above Gentiles.

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own,

 

[Andre]

I am not begging the question at all! Your position is irrational and rediculous! Righteousness is not some abstract idea whether we are talking about the Law of righteousness given to Moses, or about the rule of conscience, or the righteousness fulfilled in the life of Christ. Righteous obedience before God finds its ONLY concrete application is actual "works" that are either defined by God's righteousness revealed in that particular revealed standard to be "good" or to be "bad." That is the function of ANY LAW of righteousness including the Mosaic law.

You are begging the question again, presuming that Paul is concerned with matters of "righteous obedience". Your assertion about the nature of righteousness in the "good works" sense is essentially correct - it is indeed true that someone can talk about a "good works" righteousness that transcend the specificities of the Law of Moses.

But you cannot simply assume that this is Paul's point in this particular text.

Again, the text says what it says. Look at the evidence from the text:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own,

Who is Paul talking about here? Humanity in general? No. Jews. If Paul's point is really what you think it is, why would he focus on Jews? If Paul's point is really a universal one about people erroneously thinking that they can be made righteous by their good works, why is his critique limited to Jews?

The much better explanation is this: Paul is criticizing the Jew for trying to establish a righteousness that is exclusive to Jews.

We have to look for interpretations that make the best sense of the text - you have Paul making some kind of general humanity-wide critique of "good works" righteousness and yet, mysteriously, only accusing the Jew of this error. That is a sign that something is amiss in the exegesis.

 

[Dr. Walter]

But you cannot simply assume that this is Paul's point in this particular text.

Again, the text says what it says. Look at the evidence from the text:

You begin the text too late! Start where the actual thought begins in Romans 9:30 with the righteousness of God and with GENTILES versus Jews! Do you know of any human beings that are not either Jews or Gentiles??? Your argument depends entirely upon excluding Gentiles from this context. However, it is the Gentiles and the righeousness of God that introduce this text and who are the STANDARD for obtaining the same righteousness of God! The only difference is HOW that SINGLE STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD is obtained!

The contrast is not between JEWISH CULTURE and GENTILE CULTURE as your argument supposes but between obtaining that SINGLE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD either through faith IN CHRIST'S PROVISION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS or GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESSS through obedience to what God's Law given to Moses says is good versus bad. The Jew REJECTS the righteousness of God PROVIDED IN CHRIST'S PERSONAL WORKS OR OBEDIENCE TO THAT STANDARD and attempts to IGNORANTLY think they can provide that righteousnes through their own "good works."

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The Gentiles submitted to "the righteousness of God" through faith in Christ's provision of that imputed righteousness (Rom. 9:30) but the Jews refused the righteousness of God provided in Christ's obeidence! They have not submitted unto the Righteousness of God obtain only "through faith" in Christ rather than through PERSONAL OBEIDENCE TO THE LAW. Christ is THE END of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE (Gentile and Jew) that beleiveth "IN HIM."

It is evident that you have yet beleived "in Him" as "THE END" of the law for righteousness as YOU are advocating "going about to establish" your own righteous by YOUR OWN "good works."

 

[BobRyan]

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Some of you fellas do not understand the term "FREE" but think it is some kind of price tag that you must PAY for! FREE means there is no cost and if something is given to you FREE you cannot boast in EARNING it!

Paul just finished explaing what God has provided "FREELY by his grace" in Roman 3:24-26

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The Greek term translated "freely" is also translated "without a cause" in the New Testament where the enemies of Christ hated him "without a cause" in him.

Here it follows the declaration in Romans 3:23 that condemns all men as sinners and all coming short of the glory of God or those who do have CAUSE IN THEM to be condemned and rejected by God. It is to such that HAVE NO CAUSE IN THEM to be justified by God that Paul says we who were formerly "sinners" were "justified FREELY" or without a cause in us by what God provided in Christ for sinners. "FREELY" modifies "by his grace" describing the kind of grace that justifies sinners is WITHOUT A CAUSE in the sinner.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

That is precisely why he asks the question in Romans 3:27 - WHERE IS BOASTING THEN? If something is obtained FREELY without a cause in the sinner but all due to the cause in God's provision received by faith, then, where is any grounds for boasting????? NONE! Unless your GOOD WORKS can be found as the cause of justification?

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

.

Walter is spending a great deal of time on Romans 3:27 - yet the title of the thread is Rom 2:27.

I responded to Rom 2:27 on the first page of the thread on the off chance that Walter might actually be interested in the text that is mentioned in the subject title of this thread - and I contrast that to Rom 3:27

Let us look at the use of the term Law in Rom 2:27

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now let's contrast that to the law in Rom 3:27

Rom 3

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

It is the same law. In Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the mechanism for a lost person becoming a saved saint. But in Romans 2 Paul is speaking of the perseverance of the saints.


You cannot use Romans 3 to hatchet Romans 2. Both the justification event for the lost sinner AND the Perseverance doctrine for the saved saint are affirmed in Romans 2.

Those who wish to employ a slice and dice - hatchet out the text, model for scripture are operating with less scripture than is required for success.

in Christ,

Bob

Which is the real subject of the thread? Rom 2:27 or 3:27?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you have two different contexts .

Indeed - same law - two different contexts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Walter is spending a great deal of time on Romans 3:27 - yet the title of the thread is Rom 2:27.

I responded to Rom 2:27 on the first page of the thread on the off chance that Walter might actually be interested in the text that is mentioned in the subject title of this thread - and I contrast that to Rom 3:27

[/FONT]


Which is the real subject of the thread? Rom 2:27 or 3:27?

in Christ,

Bob

Well, if you read the thread it is obviously Romans 3:27! I made a typo on the heading. Sorry if that misled you, it was not intentional.

 

[BobRyan]

The Romans 3:27 law is the same as the Romans 3:31 law. You cannot change the meaning of the term in the middle of the text.

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

However the context of Romans 3 is clearly making the point that our keeping the Law of God is not a means to obtaining salvation. The lost must come to God by faith alone. No amount of works of the Law will transform the lost into the saved.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Romans 3:27 law is the same as the Romans 3:31 law. You cannot change the meaning of the term in the middle of the text.

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

However the context of Romans 3 is clearly making the point that our keeping the Law of God is not a means to obtaining salvation. The lost must come to God by faith alone. No amount of works of the Law will transform the lost into the saved.

Close! But close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. There are two different laws in Romans 3:27 that are in contrast to each other. The law in Romans 3:31 is the law of God that has been validated by the personal performance of Jesus Christ and received through the "law of faith" rather than by the "law" of works in Romans 3:27.

The two laws in Romans 3:27 are in contrast to each other as one promotes boasting and the other excludes boasting. "The law of faith" excludes boasting simply because it embraces what another (Christ) has merited under the Law of God and is received by imputation through faith. The "law" of works includes boasting because it is includes YOUR personal obedience to the law of God.