I have a sincere question about Calvinism - (please no fighting)...

[Don]

That's exactly right.

So God chose Pharoah to suffer the fires of hell for all eternity?

 

[Skandelon]

And so, Christ's disciples were better men than the Pharisees. Not quite as depraved.

Nope, the disciples were part of Israel's remnant reserved from the hardening of Israel. They were hand picked from Israel for a divine purpose. The rest of Israel was being temporarily hardened in their rebellion until such time that Christ was crucified and the Gentiles were ingrafted. Paul explains this fully in Romans 9-11.

 

[Aaron]

You can't have it both ways, Skandy, but your attempts are certainly entertaining.

 

[sag38]

Scarlet, your friends know the Lord, are saved. I wouldn't try to persuade them otherwise. Work with them, love them, and be used of the Lord to witness to the lost. Arguing over this issue is pointless. Just look at all the threads of wasted time and energy, of insults and counter insults, of accusations and proclamations....and to what purpose? It seems to me that it is of Satan's purpose more than anything else.

 

[quantumfaith]

If one says that God hardened Pharoah's heart, and uses it as an example in a discusson about salvation, then one has to be saying that God prevented Pharoah from being saved.

Do I believe God does that? No. Do I see any scripture that says that? No. But it's a conclusion that's easily reached by the extreme hyper-Calvinist.

Thank you for clarifying. I just did not follow you.

 

[Skandelon]

Look at what you're saying. One is saved because he did a good work. He chose to believe.

Even Calvinists affirm the need of a man to believe unto salvation. You just believe it is a work that God effectually produces, while I believe it is something that can be resisted. Regardless, Paul's rebuke of works salvation is not speaking of faith, but of the works of the law. Faith is always held as in contrast to the works of the law, not as just another work by which man could boast.

Plus, I agree with God who said, "let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

I boast in this! Do you?

 

[quantumfaith]

That's an arbitrary stipulation. God prevented Pharoah from doing good. The ulitmate result was his destruction.

So then Aaron, you are supralapsarian? (sp?)

 

[Aaron]

Even Calvinists affirm the need of a man to believe unto salvation. You just believe it is a work that God effectually produces, while I believe it is something that can be resisted.

More accurately, I believe God gives new birth, you believe man births himself.

This is not a minor issue. One is the Gospel, the other is not.

 

[Skandelon]

You can't have it both ways, Skandy, but your attempts are certainly entertaining.

I'm glad you find an explanation of orthodox Christian doctrine regarding the judicial hardening of Israel and the appointing of a remnant to be messengers to the world so entertaining. It sounds as if it may be the first time you are encountering it considering your response, which is somewhat surprising considering how certain of your own views you seem to be.

 

[Skandelon]

More accurately, I believe God gives new birth, you believe man births himself.

That is inaccurate. We affirm that God gives new birth too. At least be intellectual honest with the opposing view if you want to engage in a discussion.

This is not a minor issue. One is the Gospel, the other is not.

You like begging questions don't you?

 

[Aaron]

Puh-leeze! What I know is that the Gospel is simple, and by experience I've learned that theological tomes are only beneficial to those of like faith.

So I simply cut to the chase.

The main objection to Calvinism is man's view of himself. A man's view of Himself and his view of God are two sides of the same coin. This will also affect a man's view of the Atonement.

You preach a different Atonement than I preach. You preach a different gospel.

 

[Aaron]

That is inaccurate. We affirm that God gives new birth too.

Then you don't understand what birth is. Did you choose your first birth? Your first parents? Then what in nature or the Scriptures makes you think you can choose your second birth?

 

[Don]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
That's exactly right.

So God chose Pharoah to suffer the fires of hell for all eternity?

Sorry, Aaron; in all the hasty posting, I think this one got overlooked.

Not trying to fight; just looking for simple clarification.

edited for formatting

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is inaccurate. We affirm that God gives new birth too. At least be intellectual honest with the opposing view if you want to engage in a discussion.


You like begging questions don't you?

So since you used to be a Calvinist why dont you just answer all Scarlet's questions so nobody has arguments. Obviously you can field the questions from both sides of the Isle & since she's one of yours..... Be our guest! now she has one key person to handle it all, even questions...A win win for all!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

Did God love Jacob and hate Esau before either were born? My questions are for Scarlett.

Wow! I'm gone for three hours and come back to find 49 replies! I got to this one and will stop reading and answer you.

God told the priests of Israel in Malachi that he loved them and they questioned that love. So he told them, "Wasn't Esau the brother of Jacob? Didn't I love Jacob and hate Esau and laid waste his mountains....."

I see this not as God hating Esau before he was born - what would be the point of creating Esau just to hate him.

I see this as God choosing Jacob over Esau for whatever reasons are God's alone - it's His business why he chose a man who was deceitful over a man who didn't care about his birthright. They both had sin issues. But God chose Jacob to be the one who brought forth the promises of Abraham.

How do you reconcile the "hatred" of Esau in a literal sense with the fact that the New Testament says that it is God's will that none should perish and that He loves the WHOLE world so much that He gave his only son?

I believe that God knew Esau's heart before Esau was born and knew that the birthright would be meaningless to him. And for reasons unknown to me and I don't NEED to know nor could I understand, God chose Jacob.

 

[Scarlett O.]

And by-the-by, could someone who does adhere to the tenets of Calvinsim please answer my original question?

I am seriously only curious, not seeking an argument about it.

If it's true that God will refuse to save the reprobates or the majority of the world and will only save the "elect" or the minority, then why would one bring a child into the world? To me, it would be like play Russian roulette, with your child's soul. The odds are, Calvinistically speaking, that the child born will be a reprobate and doomed for hell no matter WHAT the "elect" parent does to raise the child in the Christian faith.

Wouldn't someone who considers himself to be a member of the elect do a much GREATER good in adopting children that are already born and not taking the chance on bringing another reprobate into the world?

This is something that I cannot reconcile with the Bible. I would truly like a sincere answer from anyone who calls himself or herself a Calvinist as to how they reconciled their beliefs about the predestined elect and the unfortunate pre-destined hell-bound-from-birth reprobates with their decision on having their own biological children.

I am not looking to debate anyone and am not looking for a fight. I will NOT fight. I just am burdened and need an answer.

 

[Skandelon]

Then you don't understand what birth is. Did you choose your first birth? Your first parents? Then what in nature or the Scriptures makes you think you can choose your second birth?

New life (or our second birth) comes through faith, as scripture clearly teaches in numerous places:

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

WE ARE RAISED WITH HIM THROUGH FAITH. Clearly faith is the mean's through which we are raised to life.

John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name.
Scripture is written so that you may believe and by believing we may have LIFE! Life comes through faith.

John 6:40
This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day."
Eternal life begins at regeneration and its clear from this text life comes to those who first believe.

Gal 3:26: You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus

Clearly it is through faith that we become sons, not the other way around.


Also consider:

Matthew 9:29
Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you";

Matthew 13:58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Luke 17:19 Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."

Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

Faith always precedes the healing, why presume it would follow being healed spiritually? Faith has always been the condition by which Christ heals, saves and gives us life everlasting.

 

[Jerome]

I believe they explain it that children born to the elect are "covenant children"?

 

[Scarlett O.]

I believe they explain it that children born to the elect are "covenant children"?

A man on a Calvinist forum once placed the birth announcement of his son there for us to read. It read, in part, that we were to be just as excited as he was because one more of the elect was born.

Someone questioned him and he said that HE was of the "elect" and therefore his son was, too.

I could only think that this would make him the Messiah and not Jesus - that salvation came from his genes and not the blood of Christ. I do think this is hyper-Calvinism, as I now understand it.

But many Calvinists do not believe that. I fear that I have stirred up a hornets nest and may not get a non-debatable answer.

 

[Amy.G]

Look at what you're saying. One is saved because he did a good work. He chose to believe.

You've got to be kidding me. Faith is not a work. Here is a verse quoted often by Calvinists.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.