Figures. ..................
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Origin of Sin, Part Deux
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Figures. ..................
Your anecdote and the Word of God are at odds.
The Word of God is clear. "God MEANT IT".
No false analogy is going to erase the truth of the Word of God.
Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)
Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.
Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.
Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
The verse was introduced for you to talk about it. How do you reconcile it with your doctrine?
Use real simple words that us less educated people can understand.
It doesn't, and I could take the time to show you but it would not do any good. You don't WANT to understand so you are not GOING to understand.
But your lack of understanding does not affect the truth of God's Word in the least.
Regardless of whether you understand it or not:
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”
Luke, the third time my son tried to touch the light I meant it too. I knew he would burn his finger and that would teach him to obey me.
But the important point is that it was originally my son's idea to touch the light. I warned him twice not to touch it. At this point my intention was to keep him from getting burned. But when I saw that he was rebellious and continued to persist, I reacted to his rebellion and allowed him to touch the light. If I had wanted, I could have picked him up and locked him in his room. But I knew that would not teach him that a hot lightbulb is dangerous, so I allowed him to touch it. My intention changed because of his rebellion.
Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.
Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.
Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”
God is in charge of EVERY event.
Your analogy is not applicable.
Yes. God is sovereign. That does not mean that He causes us to sin. God has plenty to say about those that cause others to sin. They are under His judgment. To cause another to sin is a sin. God cannot cause us to sin because God cannot sin.
I was in charge too. I could have easily picked up my son and forcibly taken him to his room and locked him in. He could not prevent me. But again, that would not have taught him that the hot lightbulb was dangerous, so I allowed him to touch it. I also wanted him to learn that when his father warns him something is dangerous, he should listen to me. I was in complete charge of the whole situation.
And it worked, he never again attempted to touch a hot lightbulb. So I brought about and taught him the lesson I desired.
But it was his idea to touch the light, not mine.
Exod 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”
Exod 12:36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.
Exod 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Deut 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might give him into your hand, as He is this day.
Deut 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
Josh 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. (Note – this is 5 verses after “Choose this day whom you will serve…”)
2 Chr 25:20 But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that He might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom.
Ps 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Isa 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, and he shall fulfill all My purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”
Isa 63:17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.
Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)
Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.
Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.
Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
God does not force people.
God does not force people.
God does not force people.
God does not force people.
God does not force people.
God does not force people.
Luke, you are stubborn. You have probably had similar experiences with your own children. I did not force my son to touch the light, I allowed him to. I could have easily prevented him from touching the light.
Your conception of God is that he is made of stone. He must act in a certain way. You cannot see that he is a person like us. Yes, he is perfect and we are not, but he is a person. If he sees us persist in rebellion against him, he will allow us to learn a lesson the hard way, just as the prodigal son did. He wasted all his money away and became a servant to a citizen of that land (Satan). He was filthy, and starving to death. He had to learn the hard way. This is not God's desire for us, but if we will not listen he will allow us to hit rock bottom on our own.
God is not rigid as you portray him. He interacts and reacts to people on a personal basis. He is a person.
None of this is accurate.
Winman, you just don't get it. God caused the prodigal to demand his inheritance and He caused him to spend his money on alcohol, parties and hookers and He caused him to work in a hog lot and He caused him to come home and then He caused him to repent. And then God caused his brother to act like a horses behind.
We are nothing more than God's little chess pieces being moved about by God just because He can. Don't you understand this is what glorifies Him??????!!!???
We are nothing more than God's little chess pieces being moved about by God just because He can. Don't you understand this is what glorifies Him??????!!!???
I sin for the same reason that you sin- I want to.
But God has at the same time ordained that I sin but his motive for the exact same deed is pure just as his motvie for the greatest sin that was ever committed was pure.
It is about the greater good.
Did Pilate sin in turning Christ over to be crucified? Sure.
Did God determine before time began that Pilate would crucify Christ? Absolutely.
Acts 4:27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
What does that tell you?
Winman, you just don't get it. God caused the prodigal to demand his inheritance and He caused him to spend his money on alcohol, parties and hookers and He caused him to work in a hog lot and He caused him to come home and then He caused him to repent. And then God caused his brother to act like a horses behind.
We are nothing more than God's little chess pieces being moved about by God just because He can. Don't you understand this is what glorifies Him??????!!!???
All of this smart alek mess and bull blatantly in the face of the Word of God.
Exod 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”
Exod 12:36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.
Exod 14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Deut 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might give him into your hand, as He is this day.
Deut 29:4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
Josh 24:19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. (Note – this is 5 verses after “Choose this day whom you will serve…”)
2 Chr 25:20 But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that He might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom.
Ps 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Isa 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, and he shall fulfill all My purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”
Isa 63:17 O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.
Verses that explicitly state Man does not have Free Will
Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)
Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.
Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.
Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
But who cares what God says?
It tells me that you are messed up.
You may sin because you want to, but I sin even though I don't want to. My heart's desire is to please God. Paul understood this war in me.
Romans 7:18-20 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Pray tell what greater good is accomplished by my sin or yours?
God commands us to sin NOT. You have God causing us to rebel against Him. That doesn't even make sense.
Is this part two of your rant Luke?
We have all heard this before.
Carry on. But if you do in this fashion, the thread will close fairly quickly.
Apparently you do not .
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