The reason God cannot sin

[Luke2427]

Is it because there are certain laws that he must abide by- laws which, if so, are at least as old as Him?

Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.
Isn't it a fact that God kills but is not a murderer?
Isn't it a fact that God sends strong delusion but is not a liar?
Isn't it a fact that God commands genocide at times and is yet not a monster?
Isn't it true that God terrifies and is not a bully?


What do you think?

 

[Winman]

Is it because there are certain laws that he must abide by- laws which, if so, are at least as old as Him?

Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.
Isn't it a fact that God kills but is not a murderer?
Isn't it a fact that God sends strong delusion but is not a liar?
Isn't it a fact that God commands genocide at times and is yet not a monster?
Isn't it true that God terrifies and is not a bully?


What do you think?

God cannot sin because he is HOLY. He is goodness itself, he is love, he is truth. There is no darkness in him whatsoever.
As for God sending a strong delusion that they believe a lie, this is both love and justice. Giving man a free will, you have to respect that, you cannot coerce or force them.
Just as the father of the prodigal son gave him his inheritance and allowed him to go out, God has to allow us to believe as we choose. God is actually giving these men what they desire.
It would be like your wife coming home and asking for a divorce. A bad man will try to force his wife to stay with him. A good man, though not happy about it, will let her go.

 

[Ruiz]

Is it because there are certain laws that he must abide by- laws which, if so, are at least as old as Him?

Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.
Isn't it a fact that God kills but is not a murderer?
Isn't it a fact that God sends strong delusion but is not a liar?
Isn't it a fact that God commands genocide at times and is yet not a monster?
Isn't it true that God terrifies and is not a bully?


What do you think?

A couple of points:

1. The great phrase, "Does God so something therefore it is right and good or is it right and good therefore God does it?" In Theology, God does something therefore it is right and Good. There is not a standard higher than God, God is the standard.

2. Can God do things that would normally be sinful if humans do the same thing? Yes! God is God, He can punish sin in ways humans cannot. God is God and we are His creation, as His creation He can do to us whatever He so wills with us. Take Jesus clearing out the Temple. If I did the same thing, I would have sinned. Yet, Jesus being God this was totally justified... this was His Temple and He was right to kick people out his Temple.

 

[Amy.G]

God cannot sin because He is holy and righteous. He if were to sin, He would unholy and unrighteous.

God is life.

God is truth.

God is just.

God is holy.


He is IAM.

 

[canadyjd]

....Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.....

Something about the way you have phrased this statement is causing me to pause..., to hesitate to agree.

God is the measure of right and wrong, because He is God and because of the perfect righteousness that is a mark of His very being. Perhaps that is what I find missing from your statement.

So, I agree that what God does is "right" simply because He does it and also because He acts consistently within His nature of perfect "right"eousness.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

Right and wrong is established by God, not the other way around, but once established He will not break his word.

For example, if God establishes that lying is sin, He cannot lie.

In some ways this relates to the question regarding "Can God create a rock so big that He can't move it?"

Most people simply answer, "no," but I disagree. Let me explain. If God creates a rock and makes a promise that He will never move that rock, then He has created a rock that he cannot move. If He does move it then He has broken his promise and that's against His very nature. It's not because He doesn't have the power to move the rock, but its because of his promise and His holiness that he cannot move it.

In the same manner, if God establishes something as being unholy (sinful) and promises or reveals that He is perfectly Holy and without sin, then you can be sure that he is not going to sin. Why? Because its against His nature. He cannot break His promise.

 

[canadyjd]

Right and wrong is established by God, not the other way around, but once established He will not break his word.

For example, if God establishes that lying is sin, He cannot lie.

In some ways this relates to the question regarding "Can God create a rock so big that He can't move it?"

Most people simply answer, "no," but I disagree. Let me explain. If God creates a rock and makes a promise that He will never move that rock, then He has created a rock that he cannot move. If He does move it then He has broken his promise and that's against His very nature. It's not because He doesn't have the power to move the rock, but its because of his promise and His holiness that he cannot move it.

In the same manner, if God establishes something as being unholy (sinful) and promises or reveals that He is perfectly Holy and without sin, then you can be sure that he is not going to sin. Why? Because its against His nature. He cannot break His promise.

For the second time in a week or so, I am finding that I agree with you.

I'm looking up....:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

[Luke2427]

God cannot sin because He is holy and righteous. He if were to sin, He would unholy and unrighteous.

God is life.

God is truth.

God is just.

God is holy.


He is IAM.

So his holiness means that there is a standard that God must keep, right?

 

[Luke2427]

Right and wrong is established by God, not the other way around, but once established He will not break his word.

For example, if God establishes that lying is sin, He cannot lie.

In some ways this relates to the question regarding "Can God create a rock so big that He can't move it?"

Most people simply answer, "no," but I disagree. Let me explain. If God creates a rock and makes a promise that He will never move that rock, then He has created a rock that he cannot move. If He does move it then He has broken his promise and that's against His very nature. It's not because He doesn't have the power to move the rock, but its because of his promise and His holiness that he cannot move it.

In the same manner, if God establishes something as being unholy (sinful) and promises or reveals that He is perfectly Holy and without sin, then you can be sure that he is not going to sin. Why? Because its against His nature. He cannot break His promise.

God establishes that for MEN to lie it is sin.

God establishes that for MEN to kill it is murder.

God can and certainly DOES send strong delusion and he certainly does kill.

 

[quickened1]

All spirits have natures. Animals have spirits (Eccl. 3:21) and that is where they get their nature from. If God put the spirit of a duck in a chicken and set it near water, it will end up drowning. Adam had to have had a spirit that was holy but it was not the Holy Spirit. This had to be the case for if his spirit was not holy he was not created in the image of God even though he was triune. Also the water found to be in Jesus indicates that he had the same spirit that Adam had (because Adam had a water circulatory system). This tells us that Jesus was a human son of God like Adam and he could have sinned. He also had the Holy Spirit in him. Anyway God cannot sin because of his nature. Just as an apple tree cannot produce oranges.

 

[Skandelon]

God establishes that for MEN to lie it is sin.

God establishes that for MEN to kill it is murder.

God can and certainly DOES send strong delusion and he certainly does kill.

Certainly you are not equating God's sending a "strong delusion" with God lying, are you?

Titus 1:2
a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Hebrews 6:18
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

The passage you are referring to is:

2 Thess 2:11: 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

For what reason does God send them a delusion? Because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This is a prime example of judicial hardening by which God gives rebellious men over to their own lusts. This in NO WAY suggests God is a liar, which you seem to be implying here. I can't believe I'm even needing to make this argument.

 

[Luke2427]

Certainly you are not equating God's sending a "strong delusion" with God lying, are you?

Titus 1:2
a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Hebrews 6:18
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

The passage you are referring to is:

2 Thess 2:11: 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

For what reason does God send them a delusion? Because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This is a prime example of judicial hardening by which God gives rebellious men over to their own lusts. This in NO WAY suggests God is a liar, which you seem to be implying here. I can't believe I'm even needing to make this argument.

I agree 100% that that passage is speaking of judicial hardening and that it is impossible for God to lie.

But it is impossible for God to lie because he cannot speak a thing and it not come to pass. Not because he has declared lying to be a sin and suddenly since he made that declaration now he cannot do it.

But there is also a sense in which, whether through judicial hardening or other means, that God can intentionally cause someone to believe something that isn't so.

He can do this because he is God and the men who are deceived deserve to be.


1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.


Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

 

[Luke2427]

Something about the way you have phrased this statement is causing me to pause..., to hesitate to agree.

God is the measure of right and wrong, because He is God and because of the perfect righteousness that is a mark of His very being. Perhaps that is what I find missing from your statement.

So, I agree that what God does is "right" simply because He does it and also because He acts consistently within His nature of perfect "right"eousness.

peace to youraying:

We are both in agreement that whatever God does is right.

What we have not yet come together on is- why?

Either right is right and God has to do it because it is.

Or God is the measure and "right" is defined as whatever God thinks and does.

I think the Bible teaches that everything he does is right not because right is right but because right is whatever he does.

You and I function differently than God. Right for us is whatever He wants. It is not right because we do it. It is right because he wants it. But when God does a thing it is right simply because it is He, God, who does it.

There are some things God cannot do- he cannot lie. He cannot promise something and it NOT come to pass. Scripture is clear on this.

But he CAN cause one to believe that something is so that isn't so. If you and I were to do this, for us, it would be lying. But not for God. Because he does not have to submit himself to some greater standard. He IS the standard.

If I tell you I will pick you up at the bus station at five, if I have no intention of doing so, then I am lying. God cannot do this. He ALWAYS does what he says.

But he can, without telling you, CAUSE you to believe he is going to pick come and get you and not do so.

The difference is in the first scenario God is actually SAYING a thing. In the second God is simply causing you to BELIEVE a thing.

For you and I, not just SAYING a thing and not intending to do it is lying BUT even causing one to believe something is lying, is it not? But for God this simply is not so.


1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

 

[Winman]

I disagree with you Luke, God cannot just do anything he wants and that makes it right.

In John 8:55 Jesus said he knows the Father, and says, "IF I SHOULD SAY, I KNOW HIM NOT, I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU"

So Jesus is bound by the truth, he cannot say whatever he wants. If God lied, he would be a sinner like us.

 

[saturneptune]

I disagree with you Luke, God cannot just do anything he wants and that makes it right.

In John 8:55 Jesus said he knows the Father, and says, "IF I SHOULD SAY, I KNOW HIM NOT, I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU"

So Jesus is bound by the truth, he cannot say whatever he wants. If God lied, he would be a sinner like us.

God set the standards and follows them. He is perfect. God did not create evil or sin. However, He can use evil (which is not creating it) to accomplish His purposes. He can and does harden hearts. He can and does leave us to our own desires. He uses all this to accomplish His purposes, however He wishes, as He is God. He being the Creator is in charge and independent of what we think about it. Luke never said the Lord created evil, changes His mind and goes back on His promises, or bluffs as another thread talked about. These are all things we do, lie, cheat, fail to live up to our promises. We try to figure out the Lord with our own flawed minds, and come up very short.

The first chapter of Romans talks about this. In His dealings with Saul and the troubling spirit, and Pharoah's heart, there is not one idea expressed that he created evil, lied, went back on a promise, but He did use elements to accomplish His purposes. In this case, it made David king and gave the Israeli people freedom from Eygptian bondage.

 

[Salty]

Or is it because he is the measure of right and wrong and what he does is simply always right no matter what it is- it is right simply because he does it.
What do you think?

Interesting questions.
I had something come to mind - not sure if it relates - but here goes.
When I was in Germany as an NCO (E-6) I was asked to fill in for an another NCO who was going on emergency leave. As I entered the bldg, a Private informed me I was out of uniform -I was wearing a wet weather parka without my rubber overshoes. This policy was established by the NCO,who was an E-5 (of whom I outranked) BTW - his policy was not required Army Regulation.
So was I breaking policy - I was with-in Army-wide policy ? (note: the E-5 was within his rights establishing a higher standard for his troops)

Does this relate at all?

 

[Aaron]

I disagree with you Luke, God cannot just do anything he wants and that makes it right.

In John 8:55 Jesus said he knows the Father, and says, "IF I SHOULD SAY, I KNOW HIM NOT, I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU"

So Jesus is bound by the truth, he cannot say whatever he wants. If God lied, he would be a sinner like us.

The Scriptures say that it is impossible for God to lie.

 

[HankD]

This is a difficult concept because God is eternal and self-sustaining.
His attributes are eternal.

So in the best words we can use, I believe we can say that in His eternality it pleased Him to be holy.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.​

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.​

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

The Scriptures say that it is impossible for God to lie.

I agree, but that does not mean we have the same understanding. I am saying that God cannot say two plus two equals five, because that would be a falsehood. But if I understand Luke correctly (at least this is the impression I got), he is saying God could say two plus two equals five and it would be the truth.

Is that what you believe?

 

[glfredrick]

I disagree with you Luke, God cannot just do anything he wants and that makes it right.

In John 8:55 Jesus said he knows the Father, and says, "IF I SHOULD SAY, I KNOW HIM NOT, I SHALL BE A LIAR LIKE UNTO YOU"

So Jesus is bound by the truth, he cannot say whatever he wants. If God lied, he would be a sinner like us.

When One (God) perfectly knows the truth because He has created that truth, He has no reason to lie. What He says... IS.

Moreover, that same One spoke an entire cosmos into existence wrapped around His truth. All things bear witness to Him and Him alone -- they are truth because they reflect His true glory.

We have, in more times than we wish to think about, cast God in our own model. We have given Him human tendencies instead of working to understand His utter godliness and holiness. Additionally, we even fear that godliness and holiness, because innately (Rom 1) we know that if confronted by it, we are undone... Doomed... Damned... No hope... Dead, but not destroyed...

Praise God, that He alone has also spoken into truth -- exemplified and fulfilled by the completed atonement of Jesus Christ -- another truth -- that we can have life, on His terms. Oh, Lord God, Almighty, Pure, and Holy, that we might HAVE that life! Forgive us our trespasses and our rebellion. Replace our lying hearts of stone with the heart of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Do what only You can do... Redeem us and set our feet upon the Solid Rock. Let our advocate by none other than Christ!