David Lamb
Well-Known Member
...and also because of the very nature of sin - rebellion against God's will. God sin, because anything He desires to do is His will, and therefore not sinful.
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The reason God cannot sin
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
...and also because of the very nature of sin - rebellion against God's will. God sin, because anything He desires to do is His will, and therefore not sinful.
But if he chooses to one things and establishes it as truth, he can not and will go against it because then He must go against Himself.
He gives commands to men- not to himself. He does not have to abide by the commands he gives to men.
Then technically He could have listened to satan in the wilderness and it wouldn't have been a sin.
Apparently this is not the case.
Scripture tells us the God is not man that He 'should' lie.. not that He Can Not lie.
God does not say one thing and contradict it Himself.
God is a law unto Himself. He can not go against Himself anymore than He can cease to be.
He is the very image of all that He has commanded us and declared what is righteous and just to us. Thus He can not do contrary to His commands/decrees anymore than you can become God yourself.
Hmmm... true. "IF" Lukes version is to be understood as correct.
So He must offer a sacrifice 3 times a day and keep the feasts and holy days and all the other laws He commanded? God cannot lie, He cannot be unrighteous, He cannot be unjust, He cannot commit iniquity but not because He is bound by His commands and decrees but because it simply isn't in His nature. He would cease to be God if He did any of those things.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I thought that was what I was saying (unless I have misunderstood you, Allan). If God "chooses to do one thing and establishes it as truth," that thing is His will - He chooses it. Sin, by definition, is going against His will. Thus, God cannot sin. For there to be someone or something that could force God to act against His own will, that "someone or something" would need to be greater, more powerful, than God!
I would say you need to study up a little more if you are serious about the above post, unless of course you are posting just to be silly. If so.. then that is quite funny
God did not undo those things nor change His mind regarding them. They were fulfilled in Christ. Therefore He is not going against His own word as it is fulfilled in 'The Word' made flesh, being the Very God Himself. That is why we do not sacrifice anymore, nor do we judge each other regarding holy days or feasts.
In scripture we see the very image of God Himself. All that it speaks to of justice, holiness, love, ect.. are based upon God Himself - Ie. His nature.
Example - God can not (and thus will not) condemn/damn someone who is sinless, just because He can or desires to.. anymore than He can (or ever will) save someone apart from faith. (ie.. understanding the truth and rejecting it). He is Just and therefore must judge - justly/righteously. It is not done upon His whim or flippantly.
My point of contention is against the philosophical view - To presume that whatever God wants to do, in and of itself, makes it 'just' and 'holy', even if it contradicts His words, decrees, and/or nature. This is not biblical.
However I do agree that whatever God does is never sinful because He never goes against His nature and thus His will or decrees.
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Yes.. and if God has set forth His will.. He will not and can not alter it, bend it, or change it. That is my point because He never goes against His nature and thus His will or decrees .
Some on here state that He can do such, and because He is God and therefore it is not wrong or sin.
This is not true. God decrees according to His nature and set forth His will, being fully established in His nature. To do anything contrary is to go against His nature, and in essense change the truth. Thus you have truth being relitive, according to God's whim.
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It is most certainly not because he told men to lie that HE cannot lie. That is silly.
He is NOT the very image of all that he commanded us to do. That is also silly.
He commanded us to do all kinds of things that he himself never intends to do.
Do not judge.
Do not kill.
Do not take vengeance.
Do not hate.
Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
The list goes on and on.
God does not abide by ANY of these commands nor does he concern himself with the keeping of hundreds of others.
It is silly to purport otherwise.
what is silly is your argument.
He can not lie, not because He told men not to. He can not lie because that is His nature.
Not when you understand the argument.
But we are allowed to judge, yet there are a few things we are not. But question is why? It goes to the very nature of who He is and thus what He knows that we do not.
All His commands have purpose to reveal and establish who He is.. ie, His nature. Each one reveals Himself to us.
Again, biblically incorrect.
We ARE permitted to kill. We are not permitted to murder.
Murder is to Kill without just cause (to paraphrase it).
Why not? Because neither does God as it goes back to His very nature.
Your list is full of follies. Each and every one can be taken back the issue of His nature and why we are commanded to do some things and not.
God does not concern Himself with keeping them because they are who He is. He does them by nature.
Let me phrase it a different way and see if we both hold to the same view or not.
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Today God tells YOU, that you are His child/son eternally through Christ Jesus.
And then the next day says "I never knew you, you are not my son".
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In what I am seeing from your post God is not lieing and what He says is true in both statements because He is God and thus never lied because what He says is true because He says it.
It is my belief that the above is not biblically correct.
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Right.
No. It is silly.
He judges- period. He tells us NOT to under certain circumstances. God is not bound to those same circumstances. Point established.
God commands us NOT to pursue vengeance. He does pursue it relentlessly.
Point established.
He does not have to abide by the commands he gives to men.
It is as silly to say that he does have to abide by them as it is to say that I have to abide by the commands that I give to my children. Sillier really.
My children have to do what I say, not because those commands reflect my character. But because I know what is best for THEM and I know what I want OF them.
I do not have to go to bed at 9:00pm. They do. Not because it reflects something about ME. Because it is something I WANT of THEM.
God kills EVERYBODY. Your point is moot.
Nope.
He does not pursue vengeance by his very nature??
Utterly preposterous.
He loves his neighbor like he loves himself???
Totally ridiculous.
He is to esteem each one better than himself?????????
You do not have an argument. To pursue this line of reasoning any further is nothing but stubbornness.
God DOES not lie because he IS truth. Truth is not something he must abide by. Truth is what he IS.
On the other hand God DOES indeed send strong delusion and deceive prophets. He can do this because he is God.
"Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you" (1 Kings 22:23).
"If the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear their punishment—the punishment of the prophet and the punishment of the inquirer shall be alike" (Ezekiel 14:9-10).
God is apart from us. He is above us and separate from us and not bound to do what he demands us to do.
We CANNOT send strong delusion and we CANNOT deceive prophets because we do not get to do whatever God gets to do. God does not have to abide by the commands he gives to us. He is above us infinitely further than I am above my children. To demand that God abide by the commands he gives to us is to horrifically demote the Almighty, imo, and it is great wickedness.
Hmm.. so you don't believe in church discipline?
You can not bring discipline unless you have judged the actions of person.
What God said what no one is to judge is the intent of the action and a persons salvation. However the action itself is to be judged as to whether it was right or sin.
Or did not Jesus state:
Jhn 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Even Peter states - whether it be right in the sight of God to obey Him or you, you be the judge.
Or do you not know that the saints shall judge the world or that we shall judge angels? (1 Cor 6:2,3)
I guess we have different bibles.
No, your argument does not address my point but in fact denies the logic for the command in the first place.
We are commanded not to do some things because we can not do it without potentially bringing in sin.. and that is why the command to NOT do so is given. It establishes and corresponds to His nature. Therefore the command does IN FACT reveal His image and the fact that He would not do so in sin, allows for Him do it - because He can not go against His nature and seek vengeance for selfish and/or wrong reasons.
Hmm.. so you don't live by the same rules you give your own children.
There is a word for that you know, but then many parents tell their children not to do things while they live contrary the rules established.
The commands of God are not just rules that are meaningless but in fact have a definite purpose - they are given to conform us into the image of Christ (who is God). It is apparent you do not comprehend why some rules are given to keep us from sin, and others to establish us in righteousness. Both are reflections of God natures and establish just what God has done, is doing, and will do.
Actaully, they do
Thus you desire them learn, and to carry on, your values and beliefs.. both of which attest/represent your character. The very reason for you giving your kids rules and commands are to train up their character to reflect yours or at least the character you desire to have in Christ.
I knew this silly argument would be brought up.
Yes, even bed time rules reflect something about you otherwise you would not care. What do you want of them? To Shut Up and get out of your life for the next ?? hours. Is it that you don't care about their health or rest, but that you can't stand the sight of them?
Yes even bedtimes reveals part of your character.
*sigh. God does not take life without purpose (a just cause).
Ergo. God does not murder. We are commanded not to murder.
Yet we are commanded to kill (death penalty) but not without just cause.
Fortunately, the answer is yes.
No, your argument is preposterous, this was spoke to above.
Yep. He loved us so much He gave up Himself for our sakes.
Again, scripture establishes this beyond contention that it is to be answered - yes. He gave all for us, establishing that He esteemed us above himself. (1 John 3:16) That He should suffer and die on our behalf.
No, it reveals your ignorance on some of the most basic aspects in theology.
That is correct. Thus He can not say one thing and then contradict it. He does not 'abide' (try or to live by a view) for the sake of being because it is His nature and as such already is. You are not even addressing what I am saying but making up your own versions. I never said He must 'abide' by His own rules. I said His rules are established from/in His very nature. He doesn't have to 'try' to keep them, He naturally walks in them because they are His character.
He does this ONLY because those people have ALREADY chosen to not believe His truths. (2 Thes 2:10-12)
Again, God did not send this against those who were following Him but to those who were already rejecting God or hearing anything from Him they didn't like.
To try to even place these two passages together for your proof texts shows you have studied this little to none and are either regurgitating someone else, or you are reaching so hard to maintain your illegitimate view, you're making horrendous hermeneutic mistakes to give you proof-texts. The very context of the passages you give establish they do not conform to your version of their meaning
Again, He does have to do or live according to His commands/rules as though He is like us to try to be conformed into another image. He does them because they are His very character.
That is because you lack understanding of/in this.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:thumbs: Well stated Allan!
Luke does seem to make up his own version. Even Calvinistic/Reformed scholars speak of God's permissive/passive will in allowing sin verses what God actively accomplishes by his doing, but it doesn't appear Luke allows for such distinctions. Well, he does sometimes and then switches things up in the very next post.
I'd still like to see one scholar who says anything like God does the deed (sin) but its not sin because his motives are good...or God sins ("deceives") but because God does it is is not really sin...etc. Those I've read, in both camps, seem to indicate that God permits, allows or gives men over to deception and lies, but never indicate God being the "doer" or the one committing the deed.
No. We have two totally different methods of interpreting Scripture. Mine is orthodox and consistent with the laws of hermeneutics and yours is built on proof texting.
You admit here that we are not to judge one's salvation and then admit that God does.
So there you have it. God commands us to do what he himself does not do.
You made this up from nothing. This is simple conjecture. It is nothing but a guess on your part. It is not biblical nor can it be supported.
The fact that you are stubbornly denying is that God commands us to do a myriad of things that he does not abide by himself. It has been proven to you unequivocally but you keep right on denying it as if facts and Scripture and proof does not matter to you.
Who does? Do you go to bed at 9:00 every night?
This is utterly ridiculous.
And the "hmmm..." is smart alek and inflammatory. People wonder why I get so aggressive in these exchanges. This smart alek mess is why.
Hmmmmm... so you stay out from behind the wheel of the car?
Hmmmm... so you ask your parents permission before going online?
Hmmmm... so you do not watch any program that your children are not allowed to watch??
You do NOT have a point Allan. You are just being stubborn.
It is time for you to admit it and say something to the effect of, "You know, you're right. God does not abide by a host of commandments he gives to men because he is above men much like I am above my children."
It is abundantly apparent that you do not understand Theology Proper at all.
Only that I know what is best for them just as God knows what is best for us. But the FACT of the matter is that what is best for me is not necessarily what is best for my children just as what is best for finite, weak, and ignorant mortals is not what is best the Almighty, Transcendent, Omniscient God.
God is forever saying, "You don't do this. I will! You don't because you are infinitely lesser than me. I will because I am infinitely more and GREATER than you."
You will pluck the Almighty from his throne in heaven and force him to live as a mortal. If you will think through your arguments you will see they ULTIMATELY LEAD to blasphemous notions.
This is blasphemy. To say that God loves man as much as he loves Christ is pure, unadulterated, humanistic, man exalting, God debasing blasphemy.
This is more of it. God did not die for us because he ESTEEMED us greater than himself. That is sheer blasphemy.
He died for us that he might SHOW the exceeding riches of his grace.
This is what Arminianism and this spin off of Arminianism which I call a nameless theology leads to- every time.
Every time it plucks the Almighty from his throne and makes man infinitely valuable.
Prove it.
You just made this stuff up from nothing.
God does not at all abide by the command to not take vengeance.
God does not at all abide by the command to not judge.
God does not at all abide by the commands that guard against selfishness.
God does not at all abide by innumerable commands that he gives to men ans demands that they abide by.
This is pure bull. I did not even address this passage and those other passages that I DID quote which you conveniently ignored have NOTHING at all to do with this ESCHATOLOGICAL passage.
This is the kind of wrangling of Scripture that leads to this nameless theology which is killing our culture.
You just made this up as well.
Prove it.
Bull. This is some mess you heard somebody preach or teach years ago and accepted it as fact and used it to interpret Scripture thereby ever since. I can think of no other reason why you would cling to this unbiblical mess.
I've never known anyone who does not conform to Theology Proper or centuries of Christian orthodoxy who does not think that anyone who disagrees with them lacks understanding.
Winman is one who obviously does not know ANYTHING at all about Theology or hermeneutics or any thing else concerning the Scripture and he says this kind of mess all the time. "You do not understand..."
That is like Obama calling Ronald Reagan a liberal.
It is called- deflection. A person with a tremendous deficiency will usually resort to deflecting that VERY deficiency upon the one with whom he is in conflict.
This is what you are doing, Allan.
You do not understand Theology Proper. NNE who does would claim that God keeps the commandments he gives to men and N
ANYONE who understands Theology Proper would know that God is ABOVE us infinitely higher than any parent is above his child and he commands men to do whatever pleases Him based on his infinite wisdom and power. God is transcendent.