Total Depravity = Hardening?

[Skandelon]

Iconoclast, you never answered my question: Can you explain the difference between one who is Totally Depraved but not yet hardened and one who has become hardened?
What part of the definition for hardening is not consistent with Total Depravity?


At conception we are born totally depraved.We are already sinners. It is our natural condition.

hardening is a process opposite to sanctification, in that the ungodly progess in their ungodliness in real time.

if God does not at all restrain wickedness, there would be worse anarchy in the world than there already is.

But how is the definition I gave regarding "hardening" inconsistent with that of Total Depravity? The passage I presented show that men "grow hardened" "otherwise they might see, hear understand and respond." How do you explain that?

Skandelon, in the earlier reply ...you spoke of drawing,yet i highlighted the condition of man ..in bold print

Jesus said ...No man can
you say...all men can

I believe Jesus on this.

We both agree with Jesus on this, at least we think we do, so such incendiary comments aren't really necessary.

No one can believe a message they have yet to hear, right? "How can they believe unless someone preaches?"

In Romans 6 the gospel is being hidden from the world (Israel in particular and hasn't been sent to the Gentiles yet). The gospel hasn't been sent to the world yet. It is being hidden in parables lest they repent (Mk 4; Matt 13 etc), and Jesus is warning the disciple to keep things quite because it is not the proper time. Israel is being sent a "spirit of stupor" and "hardened in their rebellion" (Jn 12:39-41) which is why they can't believe, (which, btw, is NOT the universal condition of all men from birth).

So, Jesus is right. NNE CAN come to him unless the father has granted it. The apostles, the remnant of Israel, have been handpicked and reserved from the hardening process so that they can be the messengers to the rest of the world. The rest of Israel cannot come to faith yet because they are being blinded in their rebellion so as to accomplish the crucifixion and to allow for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. I know this is hard to see and understand when you have only read these passages from the Calvinistic perspective but I assure you this is the view that believers have held to long before Augustine even came along. I just ask you to put down the debate banner and at least attempt to understand this perspective before you dismiss it and just try to "win" a debate. thanks

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon, I am not sure that you meant to post this ,this way did you?

In Romans 6 the gospel is being hidden from the world (Israel in particular and hasn't been sent to the Gentiles yet). The gospel hasn't been sent to the world yet. It is being hidden in parables lest they repent (Mk 4; Matt 13 etc), and Jesus is warning the disciple to keep things quite because it is not the proper time. Israel is being sent a "spirit of stupor" and "hardened in their rebellion" (Jn 12:39-41) which is why they can't believe, (which, btw, is NOT the universal condition of all men from birth).

In Rom6 the gospel is being hidden from the world???

men cannot believe unless they are sheep.

what you describe in this paragraph [the parables]...was before the cross.
you do not see the apostles using parabolic language

Jesus was judging apostate Israel.

You are correct about the saved remnant in Israel...i can agree there.

These issues are a larger discussion than the OP was speaking about.

 

[Aaron]

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

No it doesn't. The doctrine teaches that men hate the knowledge of God and will, except by His grace, blaspheme Him.

Calvinism teaches, in accordance with Scripture, that men possess a natural knowledge of God and themselves, but that it is corrupted partly by ignorance and partly by malice.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

And that they WILL reject it, except by God's grace.[/QUOTE]

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, I am not sure that you meant to post this ,this way did you?


In Rom6 the gospel is being hidden from the world???

I meant that during that time while Christ was on earth speaking to his Jewish audience as he was in Romans 6. It is only after he is raised up after his death that he will draw all men to himself.

men cannot believe unless they are sheep.

Agreed. His sheep of the first fold are the remnant of Israel, while the other fold he speaks of is a reference to the Gentiles. As explained, Israel is being hardened in their rebellion. Only a select few from Israel are being let in on the gospel mystery and they are even a bit cloudy on that until after the Holy Spirit comes. It was only after he was raised up and the Holy Spirit came that the drawing of the powerful gospel began. Before then no one could come to Jesus except a select few.

what you describe in this paragraph [the parables]...was before the cross.
you do not see the apostles using parabolic language

Sure, but I do see any reference to them doing so in order to confuse and keep people in the dark, do you?

Jesus was judging apostate Israel.

In part, yes. But as Paul explains in Romans 11 he fully expects that some of the hardened ones in Israel could be provoked by envy and leave their unbelief. God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

These issues are a larger discussion than the OP was speaking about.

True.

 

[Skandelon]

And that they WILL reject it, except by God's grace.

Agreed. I just happen to believe that God's sending of Christ, the apostles, scripture, the Holy Spirit and the Bride of Christ, all of which are sent to proclaim the powerful appeal of reconciliation to all creatures of the world is an act of GRACE, whereas you believe all these means are powerless apart from a prior inward work of regeneration which is so vaguely taught in scripture it takes a man made manual to find it.

 

[Aaron]

IOW, you agree but disagree. First, you make a completely false assertion about the teaching of Calvinism, and when you're corrected you say you agree but disagree.

The fact of the matter is you don't know what you believe, but I can tell you. You believe that those who have chosen Christ are better people than those who haven't. At the very least, you cannot believe their sin is as great as those who have, in your notion of the concept, been "hardened."

You believe YOU are better.

Not judgin'—just sayin'.

 

[Skandelon]

And I suppose I could play the childish game of back and forth and claim you think your better because you think God chose you over most others...

I suppose you think your better because you understand God and salvation better than me, uh?

 

[Aaron]

My doctrine precludes that very notion, but it's essential for yours.

 

[Skandelon]

My doctrine precludes that very notion, but it's essential for yours.

Only in your straw-man world Aaron.

 

[quantumfaith]

And I suppose I could play the childish game of back and forth and claim you think your better because you think God chose you over most others...

I suppose you think your better because you understand God and salvation better than me, uh?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

No. It's very simple. In the view you extol here, men are hardened only after they've sinned enough to earn that punishment. Up to that time they are free to choose the Gospel.

Their choice of the Gospel is 100% non-compulsory. IOW God hasn't done one thing inside the individual who chooses that He hasn't done in one who hasn't chosen. That leaves only one possibility—those who choose the Gospel have more love for it than those who don't, and that love must be an inherent, innate quality.

Bottom line, those who choose are inherently better than those who don't. There is no other possible conclusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

you said;

I meant that during that time while Christ was on earth speaking to his Jewish audience as he was in Romans 6. It is only after he is raised up after his death that he will draw all men to himself.


Quote:

Romans 6 is written after Jesus is in heaven.

The gospel was known in the OT also,although most men rejected it.

 

[Skandelon]

No. It's very simple. In the view you extol here, men are hardened only after they've sinned enough to earn that punishment. Up to that time they are free to choose the Gospel.

Their choice of the Gospel is 100% non-compulsory. IOW God hasn't done one thing inside the individual who chooses that He hasn't done in one who hasn't chosen. That leaves only one possibility—those who choose the Gospel have more love for it than those who don't, and that love must be an inherent, innate quality.

Bottom line, those who choose are inherently better than those who don't. There is no other possible conclusion.

And one chosen by God is inherently better because he was chosen by God...and Calvinists are inherently better because they 'rightly' understand doctrine...

don't pretend you avoid this same accusation...

Plus, doesn't scripture say "Well done good and faithful servant" for the very reason that they chose rightly? Doesn't the whole reward/punishment system rely on the fact that some do better than others?

If any wants to boast, they should boast that they know and understand God, because His love is constant, and He does what is just and right!!!

 

[Skandelon]

you said;


Romans 6 is written after Jesus is in heaven.
.

I understand that. But its recording what happen at that time in history. It's called "historical context." It is a basic principle of doing proper hermeneutics. When you understand that Israel was being hardened causing them to not to be able to believe it sheds much light on why they couldn't believe. It has nothing to do with some inherited depraved nature. It is about their being blinded in their rebellion. It is only when the gospel is sent to the world that we see the response like we do in Acts 2, before that they were not being drawn.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that. But its recording what happen at that time in history. It's called "historical context." It is a basic principle of doing proper hermeneutics. When you understand that Israel was being hardened causing them to not to be able to believe it sheds much light on why they couldn't believe. It has nothing to do with some inherited depraved nature. It is about their being blinded in their rebellion. It is only when the gospel is sent to the world that we see the response like we do in Acts 2, before that they were not being drawn.

If you used proper hermeneutics you would believe in the grace of God as the reformers did. You would not look to re-define everything.

 

[Skandelon]

If you used proper hermeneutics you would believe in the grace of God as the reformers did. You would not look to re-define everything.

So instead of responding to the actual argument regarding Israel being unable to believe BECAUSE they are being hardened in their rebellion, otherwise they might repent (as John 12:39-41 clearly teaches), you would rather throw around generalized rebukes and insults that are tantamount to a childish game of "I'm rubber you're glue..."

I'm not interested. Have a great day.

 

[DHK]

If you used proper hermeneutics you would believe in the grace of God as the reformers did. You would not look to re-define everything.

Here is an example of a well-expounded passage of Scripture that we are all familiar with. The author is Gregory Koukl, and his take is different than what most people's are:

"My Sheep Hear My Voice"

Many have taken this statement by Jesus in John 10 to refer to the Christian's acquired ability to "hear" God's personal instructions to him. "Hearing God's voice" is advocated as a very useful skill that aids optimal Christian living. Allegedly, this is a learned ability one gains as he matures in Christ. It enables him to sense Jesus' will in any given situation as he "hears" Jesus' voice.

Jesus has nothing like this in mind, though. I know because of the context surrounding the verse and a key clarification John himself gives early in the chapter. In verse six, John explicitly states that when Jesus speaks of His sheep "hearing His voice" He is using a figure of speech.

The word "voice," then, can't actually mean some kind of inner voice because a thing is never a metaphor of itself. It's a picture of something else. Jesus must be referring, in a figure, to something else that the phrase "hear my voice" represents. What is it?

The context tells the story. Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me," and then adds, "and I give eternal life to them" (27-28). Note the sequence: His sheep hear His voice. They follow Him in response. He then gives them eternal life. Hearing Jesus' voice is a figure of speech for the inner working of the Holy Spirit that leads to our salvation. It results in salvation; it's not the result of salvation. It's applied here to non-believers destined for the Kingdom, not believers already in the Kingdom.

This makes perfect sense in the broader context of the chapter. The Jews have no trouble hearing Jesus' words. They know what Jesus is saying. Their problem is that they don't respond with belief. Why don't the Jews "hear" Jesus by responding with belief? Jesus tells us plainly. They don't "hear" because God is not "speaking" to them. They are not among the sheep the Father has given to the Son (26).



The voice being referred to here is not the still, small voice of private direction given by God to Christians, but the effective call of the Holy Spirit bringing non-Christians to salvation.
Our paraphrase test comes to our aid once again:

You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. Mature Christians have the ability to sense My personal direction for their lives and obey it, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….

You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. The ones that the Father gives me my sheep are the ones that respond to my message and believe in me, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….


The first view actually makes salvation dependent on the ability to get personalized communications from God. The second makes salvation dependent on the Father, which is Jesus' point in the passage.
To Jesus, "hearing" God is not an advanced skill one must develop to open lines of communication to the Father. It's a figure of speech. Hearing Jesus' voice is not getting individual, personalized direction. It's getting saved. It's the result of the Father drawing the non-believer into Jesus' arms.

http://www.christianity.com/Home/Christian Living Features/11645738/page3/


Note that the sheep "heard" before they believed; before they actually became "sheep."

 

[Aaron]

And one chosen by God is inherently better because he was chosen by God...and Calvinists are inherently better because they 'rightly' understand doctrine...

No. The Scriptures are clear. Those who are chosen are not chosen because of any inherent quality. They are chosen on the basis of God's purposes according to election.

don't pretend you avoid this same accusation...

Paul was chief of sinners. Can't get to be a much worse sinner than that.* But he was chosen.

Plus, doesn't scripture say "Well done good and faithful servant" for the very reason that they chose rightly? Doesn't the whole reward/punishment system rely on the fact that some do better than others?

To the carnal mind, yes, but not to a renewed mind. What's interesting is now that you're forced to admit an essential element of your theology, that some people are naturally better than others, you're twisting the Scriptures to support it.

*Unless you think a child rapist is worse than one who rapes Christ's bride, but then you'd be making Paul a liar. He wasn't really the chief of sinners, it was just his low self-esteem that made him say that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus said ...No man can
you say...all men can

I believe Jesus on this.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Now that my Truck Driving Brother is Gospel truth. ROFL :jesus:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you used proper hermeneutics you would believe in the grace of God as the reformers did. You would not look to re-define everything.

And all the people said "Amen" :thumbs: