Total Depravity = Hardening?

[Osage Bluestem]

Is there no ending to the twisting you Calvinists do to justify your error?

Jesus paid price for all who will trust in Him. His blood has the ability to forgive all sin everywhere, but for this to occur, a person must accept this forgiveness. If they reject this payment, they must pay the price their selves.

What happens to people who never hear the gospel before they die in your soteriology?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you know why your hermenentics fail? Because it attempts to pass down the unbiblical assumptions of those who came before. All of there mistakes you receive as the gospel truth when all the while we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us. You place your hermeneutics above scripture.

We have no need of teachers who pass down all the mistakes of the past. Calvinism does not teach grace in actuallity. What it claims as grace isn't true grace at all. It just isn't graceful to offer Salvation to a particular few while condemning others to hell with out recourse. There simply is no grace in Calvinism. There is no submission in Calvinism there fore there is no grace. Calvinism only offers particularism, for those who want to be particularist. The grace you may have received certainly isn't because of your failing hermeneutics or what Calvinism teaches.
MB

Hello Mb,
I would like to respond to some of what you say here.

you say;

Do you know why your hermenentics fail? Because it attempts to pass down the unbiblical assumptions of those who came before

I believed most of what I believe now before I knew any of these historical persons existed. Furthermore I believed and embraced the truths of scripture before I ever read anything from Calvin or the Reformers, or puritans.
That being said...I now have come to appreciate how much wisdom God has given these men and women who looked at the scriptures and saw the same God,and the same truth taught.
then you say;

All of there mistakes you receive as the gospel truth when all the while we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

This kind of statement borders on ignorance. As if only you have the Holy Spirit?? The church throughout time has not been indwelt by the Spirit? Why would you say this?
God has given pastors and teachers to His church.If you choose to ignore this fact ,that is up to you.

We have no need of teachers who pass down all the mistakes of the past.

The whole reformation was based on these truths. Mistakes?
I doubt you can accurately state the teaching of scripture concerning these truths much less set yourself up in a position to judge all these brothers as mistake filled.
then you say this;

Calvinism does not teach grace in actuallity. What it claims as grace isn't true grace at all. It just isn't graceful to offer Salvation to a particular few while condemning others to hell with out recourse.

this mis-representation of the teaching shows you do not grasp the teaching of grace, or the free offer of the gospel. God is going to save multitudes...not a particular few.

Your works based ideas are what is missing out on grace.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Sorry to use this quote....it uses election and grace in the same sentence.
The mistaken calvinist the Apostle Paul most have learned the mistakes of the other calvinists among the apostles.
Not everyone can or will believe in the grace of God. God has to allow them to. You might not agree with those who understand the doctrines of grace, but do not mis-represent the position as you disagree. When you do intentionally ,or not ....no one will take your post seriously.

 

[Iconoclast]

Dhk,
Just got home tonight so i will try to respond to several of your thoughts
from post 57

They don't "hear" because God is not "speaking" to them. They are not among the sheep the Father has given to the Son (26).

I agree with this.

The voice being referred to here is not the still, small voice of private direction given by God to Christians, but the effective call of the Holy Spirit bringing non-Christians to salvation.

ok this reminds me of this

13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 thess2 explains how the Spirit quickens the word to the sheep.
I do not like how this writer says this;

You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. The ones that the Father gives me my sheep are the ones that respond to my message and believe in me, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….

God does not react, or give eternal life.....because as he says.....as a resultI give life to them. That is false. The sheep have to be enabled to respond, they would never do it of their own accord.

7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Note that the sheep "heard" before they believed; before they actually became "sheep."

The sheep heard because God allowed them to.That is why they are sheep.
They did not become sheep.....they were sheep...just lost ones .Jesus the good shepherd finds All of His sheep

7Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

In post 77 you repeat the error that God is not willing that any perish....once again the bible does not teach that...Jesus is more than willing that multitudes perish,mt 7:21-24 depart from me
rev20

 

[Iconoclast]

Translation: If you have half a brain, then you would be (remain) a calvinist.

No.....spiritual truth is spiritually discerned. It is not a question of human ability or lack thereof....salvation is of the Lord.He reveals truth to whom He will. A natural man can be an intellectual genius and yet be completely devoid of the truth of the grace of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

It isn't a matter of using only a small percentage of their brain that is the problem with reformers. It's the dependence on their beloved reformers of the past, such as Calvin, in place of the clear teachings of scripture that is the problem. No one reading the bible would come up with this erroneous system. It takes extra-biblical teaching to become a Calvinist.

Not so Robert.....when I read romans 8 romans 9 and ephesians 1, eph 3 I believed God as He reveals Himself as the true and living God who has revealed His eternal plan to the the church.
Did not even know of Calvin or the puritans before seeing the truth of scripture, although there was still much more to learn.

 

[DHK]

It's my belief that you think that the Lord propitiated the Father's wrath for each and every person who has and shall live. If that is indeed what you think then you have to deal with the idea that even people in perdition now and in the future had the removal of Divine wrath --only to receive Divine wrath for eternity in Hell. That would be injustice in the extreme.

"It is my belief" But I never quoted my belief. I simply quoted Scripture. You are making unwarranted Scriptures and apparently don't have a clue of what I believe. You would be wise to listen to a person first, and then respond, rather than to respond to the words that you have already put in a person's mouth. That is disgusting.

In 1 John 2:2 John is saying that Christ is not only the propitiation for His own among the Jewish nation but for His children scattered around the world --not each and every person head-for-head. See John 11:51 and 52 for a proper understanding of 1 John 2:2 -- the very same author is speaking.

You know the art of eisigesis well. John was the Apostle writing to the world--both Jews and Gentiles. There is not one word here that speaks of Jews. You really have to stretch the context, read into it, or simply ignore it to get that out of it. The "we" are the believers "the church" that he is writing to. He wrote ca. 90 A.D. when division between Jewish and Gentile believers was no longer a problem. He was writing to believers--they were all one in Christ. The "we" is inclusive, meaning that he includes himself.

He is the propitiation for OUR sins, and not for OURS (believers in Christ) but for those of the whole world. Yes, he is the propitiation for each and every person in the world for every age from the beginning to the end. And all who believe on him shall have eternal life. That is his promise, and that is not universalism. Atonement is sufficient to all; efficacious to those that believe.

You would like John 2:2 to read :"He Himself is the proptiation for everyone,everywhere at all times." But,that's not a proper reading of the doctrine.

Is that what I said. You like to put words in people's mouths and then answer to your own words. IT is disgusting.

 

[jbh28]

And yet in contradiction to that statement the Bible clearly says:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Do you believe the propitiation is effective for those that don't believe? Or do you just believe that the propitiation is only effective for those that do believe, though it is sufficient for all?

His blood has the ability to forgive all sin everywhere, but for this to occur, a person must accept this forgiveness. If they reject this payment, they must pay the price their selves.

Do you know of a Calvinist that teaches that the shed blood of Christ didn't have the ability to save all sin? Most Calvinists that I have read all agree that the death of Christ was sufficient to save all, but only efficient for the elect(those that believe).

The Synod of Dordt was very clear that the atonement was sufficient for all but efficient for the elect.

"Article 3: The Infinite Value of Christ's Death

This death of God's Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world."​

 

[DHK]

Do you believe the propitiation is effective for those that don't believe? Or do you just believe that the propitiation is only effective for those that do believe, though it is sufficient for all?

It has the ability; it is sufficient.
For those who believe it is efficacious.

 

[Rippon]

You don't have a clue of what I believe.

Maybe you have completely forgotten our exchanges over the years including the thread :God Got The Memo.

He is the propitiation for OUR sins, and not for OURS (believers in Christ) but for those of the whole world. Yes, he is the propitiation for each and every person in the world for every age from the beginning to the end.

That sounds pretty much like :He Himself is the propitiation for everyone,everywhere,and at all times. (DHK 1 John 2:2)

Propitiation removes the wrath of God the Father. You believe that every single person --past,present and future has had their sins propitiated --no wrath of the Father will abide on them. Yet the reality is that that many are in Hell and many others will spend their eternity there who supposedly had their sins propitiated. That just doesn't make scriptural sense. Your understanding of propitiation and what it entails is not biblical.

 

[jbh28]

It has the ability; it is sufficient.
For those who believe it is efficacious.

On that, we agree.

 

[DHK]

Dhk,
Just got home tonight so i will try to respond to several of your thoughts
from post 57

ok this reminds me of this

1 thess2 explains how the Spirit quickens the word to the sheep.
I do not like how this writer says this;

You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. The ones that the Father gives me my sheep are the ones that respond to my message and believe in me, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….

God does not react, or give eternal life.....because as he says.....as a resultI give life to them. That is false. The sheep have to be enabled to respond, they would never do it of their own accord.

Though God is omniscient, and knows the end from the beginning, he does respond to prayer, even the "sinner's prayer," if it can be so called. If the unsaved prays, calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save Him, Christ (as per his promise in Romans 10:13) will surely save him.

We are saved because we respond to the word of God. It is the message of the gospel that saves.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

The sheep heard because God allowed them to.That is why they are sheep.

It is evident that God allowed the unbelieving Jews who resisted the Holy Spirit to hear the Word of God as well. Everywhere Jesus went multitudes heard the Word of God.

They did not become sheep.....they were sheep...just lost ones .Jesus the good shepherd finds All of His sheep.

The sheep are the ones that believe on Christ. After they believe, THEN, Jesus gives unto them eternal life. Not until then. They must believe of their own free will.

In post 77 you repeat the error that God is not willing that any perish....once again the bible does not teach that...Jesus is more than willing that multitudes perish,mt 7:21-24 depart from me
rev20

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Your argument is with Scripture not with me.

 

[DHK]

Maybe you have completely forgotten our exchanges over the years including the thread :God Got The Memo.

I prefer accurate quotes, my words put in quotes. People's memories tend to be hazy, and their paraphrases usually inaccurate. You would do best to quote me if you are going to try and express my beliefs.

That sounds pretty much like :He Himself is the propitiation for everyone,everywhere,and at all times. (DHK 1 John 2:2)

Like I said, if you have a problem with the Bible (1John 2:2), take it up with God, not me. I didn't write it.

Propitiation removes the wrath of God the Father.

Another word is "satisfaction." In a legal sense Christ satisfied the demands of God the Father by paying the penalty of our sins, and not for ours only but the penalty for the sins of the whole world, as the verse says.

You believe that every single person --past,present and future has had their sins propitiated

I believe what the Bible says. He is the propitiation of our sins, and for the sins of the whole world. What part of that do you not understand? If you don't believe it you have a problem with God and his word.

--no wrath of the Father will abide on them. Yet the reality is that that many are in Hell and many others will spend their eternity there who supposedly had their sins propitiated. That just doesn't make scriptural sense. Your understanding of propitiation and what it entails is not biblical.

So say you. Take your argument up with God.
It is plainly stated that he is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. I said I agree with the statements written in the Bible, not with your philosophy. Your argument is with God and His Word, not with me.

 

[Robert Snow]

What happens to people who never hear the gospel before they die in your soteriology?

Unless they are mentally unable to understand, or are infants, they face God's judgment. I believe if anyone obeys the light that God gives them, He will give them more light, like Romans chapter one mentions.

 

[pinoybaptist]

What happens to people who never hear the gospel before they die in your soteriology?

In that soteriology, the gospel is the cross' and empty tomb's power.
They will never understand or admit that without the cross and the empty tomb the gospel is all hot air and that even without the gospel the cross and the empty tomb is power.

 

[Rippon]

Like I said, if you have a problem with the Bible (1John 2:2), take it up with God, not me. I didn't write it.

Your interpretation of that passage as well as 2 Peter 3:9;John 3:16 etc. are in error.

Another word is "satisfaction." In a legal sense Christ satisfied the demands of God the Father by paying the penalty of our sins, and not for ours only but the penalty for the sins of the whole world, as the verse says.

I like the word "satisfaction" as another way of expreesing the idea of 1 John 2:2 and other passages. I have used the term myself a number of times.

But,again, you err when you claim that Christ paid the penalty of the sins of the whole world if you define "whole world as "each and every person who has and shall live on the earth.

Christ's death was for the benefit for His elect alone scattered throughout the earth --in the past,present and future. His death was international --world-wide but not for each-and-every.

Christ's death secured the redemption of folks from among all every tribe,language,people and nation as Rev.5:9,7:9 and other passages reveal.

Christ most certainly did not pay the penalty for those residing and those who shall reside in Hell. According to your view the reprobate are paying their own penalty for their sins even though Christ already paid the penalty for their sins! Sorry, that does not biblically compute.

I agree with the statements written in the Bible

You have to compare Scripture with Scripture --the analogy of Scripture principle. I have said before that John 10:51,52 matches up with and connects the dots with 1 John 2:2.

 

[David Lamb]

Not so Robert.....when I read romans 8 romans 9 and ephesians 1, eph 3 I believed God as He reveals Himself as the true and living God who has revealed His eternal plan to the the church.
Did not even know of Calvin or the puritans before seeing the truth of scripture, although there was still much more to learn.

The same for me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The same for me.

Yes indeed:thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is there no ending to the twisting you Calvinists do to justify your error?

I could say the same about you but then that would be accusing, right.

 

[Iconoclast]

You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. The ones that the Father gives me my sheep are the ones that respond to my message and believe in me, and as a result I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all….

Though God is omniscient, and knows the end from the beginning, he does respond to prayer, even the "sinner's prayer," if it can be so called. If the unsaved prays, calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save Him, Christ (as per his promise in Romans 10:13) will surely save him.

We are saved because we respond to the word of God. It is the message of the gospel that saves.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

It is evident that God allowed the unbelieving Jews who resisted the Holy Spirit to hear the Word of God as well. Everywhere Jesus went multitudes heard the Word of God.

The sheep are the ones that believe on Christ. After they believe, THEN, Jesus gives unto them eternal life. Not until then. They must believe of their own free will.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Your argument is with Scripture not with me.

here are your responses; It is clear that you differ from scripture.

We are saved because we respond to the word of God

Yet the scripture I posted in ezk34 says God will,I will,..not the sheep will.

Your false idea of "free will" forces you to twist the work of God into the work of man. When you say...we are saved-because we you highlight your error. You compound the error when you say this;

The sheep are the ones that believe on Christ. After they believe, THEN, Jesus gives unto them eternal life. Not until then. They must believe of their own free will.

You have reversed the scriptural order. You have mans supposed "free will"
in the place of God ,effectively making an idol of it,yousay;

Not until then. They must believe of their own free will.

Then we have the classic pull it out of context and have the text say what it does not.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Your argument is with Scripture not with me

In post 77....you left out the ....to-usward.....your theology leaves out the
to-usward being the elect being spoken of.
When you do this and repeat these errors, my arguement is with you,not with scripture.

 

[MB]

Hello Mb,
I would like to respond to some of what you say here.

you say;


I believed most of what I believe now before I knew any of these historical persons existed. Furthermore I believed and embraced the truths of scripture before I ever read anything from Calvin or the Reformers, or puritans.

I do not believe you formed these ideas on your own as you claim here.
The odds of two people more than 1900 years apart coming up with the exact same theology just isn't possible. I've had Calvinist make this claim before. I just do not believe you. What can I say the only truth is God's absolute truth.

That being said...I now have come to appreciate how much wisdom God has given these men and women who looked at the scriptures and saw the same God,and the same truth taught.
then you say;

This kind of statement borders on ignorance. As if only you have the Holy Spirit?? The church throughout time has not been indwelt by the Spirit?
Why would you say this?

Then according to you no one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit not even your self. And you think I border on ignorance. No one is saved with out the Holy Spirit.

God has given pastors and teachers to His church.If you choose to ignore this fact ,that is up to you.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Teachers teach us about Christ so that we might be converted after conversion and we submit to the righteousness of Christ. We then have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us and He teaches us.

The whole reformation was based on these truths. Mistakes?
I doubt you can accurately state the teaching of scripture concerning these truths much less set yourself up in a position to judge all these brothers as mistake filled.

The reformation of the Catholic faith is a mistake built on a false Christianity. Where men worship Mary and other so called saints.

then you say this;

this mis-representation of the teaching shows you do not grasp the teaching of grace, or the free offer of the gospel. God is going to save multitudes...not a particular few.

What I said about grace I stand behind. Grace is a loving favor that can only be had while we are in submission to Him.
The rebels of the world are not saved until they lay down there rebellion and submit.

Your works based ideas are what is missing out on grace.

Faith and submission is not works. Submission is giving up the fight and faith is a gift from God. Eph 2:8

Sorry to use this quote....it uses election and grace in the same sentence.
The mistaken calvinist the Apostle Paul most have learned the mistakes of the other calvinists among the apostles.

Too funny :laugh: Paul certainly was no calvinist. Only your arrogance would cause you to claim it to be so.

Not everyone can or will believe in the grace of God. God has to allow them to. You might not agree with those who understand the doctrines of grace, but do not mis-represent the position as you disagree. When you do intentionally ,or not ....no one will take your post seriously.

What a load of bull. Here we have that particular few who are allowed to believe. The doctrines of grace as you call them do not exist in scripture. They didn't exist at all until Calvinist formed them for a response to the Arminians. They only exist in the confused mind of the Calvinist. Which is why I assume that Calvinist everyday are turning back to there homes in the Catholic faith and the Pope who doesn't believe Christ was the messiah is there waiting for there return.
MB