Total Depravity = Hardening?

[quantumfaith]

It's called different interpretations. You don't interpret Scriptures properl...I mean the same way we do. Those of us that have a calvinistic view point got our doctrine from the Bible. Saying our doctrine doesn't come from the Bible isn't approaching this very honestly. It's a matter of interpretation. I believe you get your doctrine from the Bible, just don't interpret passages the same.

Thank you for an honest and forthright assessment of the real issue.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism and the Seventh-Day Adventists have been around longer than me or you. I reject these teachings as well. Like Calvinism, they claim to be sound biblical doctrines, and indeed they can show bible verses that support their systems. However, when totality of scripture is viewed, their beliefs fall apart.

So in other words your saying that Calvinists are not biblical? Is that what your saying? dont hold back Robert, tell me your thoughts & feelings. Your equating us to Heretics.....please tell me more.

 

[Aaron]

The irony is that Snow's doctrine aligns with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism and the Seventh-Day Adventists much better than ours. They all teach free will.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hello Skandelon,
Way back in Post #37, I wrote

The theology around hardening is not simple, but whatever it means it does not contradict the clear testimony of Scripture that unconverted people are dead in trespasses and sins- not sick or wounded but dead- and we are in that state from birth which is why we need to be born again.

To which you replied

If you are consistent in your application of the analogy concerning "death" then you must also believe that a corpse couldn't reject Christ, or pretend to accept and become a false teacher, or do any number of things that clearly lost people do in response to the gospel. The analogy of death refers to one being an enemy of God, separated from him...like when a father says to his son, "you are dead to me." Keep in mind that Paul also refers to believers as being dead to sin, but that doesn't mean believers cannot sin. The analogy of being dead in sin doesn't have to mean that the life giving truth is powerless to bring a willingly response as you presume.

I note that you have given no Biblical references for your opinions. It would be helpful if you would show how the Bible gives you support.

When the Bible speaks of people being 'dead in trespasses and sins' it means at the very least that they cannot come to life in their own strength, any more than Lazarus could. Read Eph 2,especially vs 4-5. When we were spiritually dead, it needed God to make us alive. In further support of this, I offer 1Cor 2:14: 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' Ordinary men and women do not respond to the Gospel because they think it's silly. They may approve of its morality and admire its adherents, but they will not repent and trust in Christ.

When the Bible speaks of Christians as 'Dead to sin,' that is true of us spiritually. Our old self is dead, crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6-7). But Paul also teaches that there remains within our bodies ('flesh') a 'relic' of sin (eg. Gal 5:17) which we have to keep down and suppress. So when Paul says, 'Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body....', he doesn't say, do not let sin reign in you, because he's just said that we died to sin. As I said, this is quite difficult, and hard to explain briefly. I recommend reading D. M. Lloyd-Jones on Romans 6. However, just as true Christians are kept by the power of God unto salvation (1Peter 1:5) so unconverted people are kept helpless in their state of spiritual death by Satan, until One stronger than he comes to release them (Mark 3:27).


I continued

So when men continually reject Christ, God's longsuffering comes to an end

You replied

What is God waiting on? Why is he patient and longsuffering with people if people have nothing to do with their own salvation? Is he waiting on himself?

This is where I think you show a degree of ignorance concerning the Doctrines of Grace. The Bible is very clear that the gates of heaven are wide open (Isaiah 51:1ff; Mark 1:15; John 6:37b; Rev 2:17 etc.). The fact is that people choose not to come, and will continue to do so unless God changes their hearts (John 3:19 etc., etc.). However, when men and women repeatedly turn their backs on the Gospel, God in His righteousness gives them over to their sins and hardness of heart (Prov 1:24ff; Rom 1:18ff). This is Judicial hardening.

Now I'm sorry if you don't like this or if it makes no sense to you, but that is not my problem. It is the teaching of the Scriptures as I have tried to show you.

Read Acts 28:21-28 and notice the difference between the Jews who are hardened and the Gentiles who are not. One is unable and the other is..."they will listen." (Acts 28:28)

The Jews of that time were hardened for the most part (Rom 11:25) and the Gospel went forth in power to the Gentiles. Both were by the sovereign will of God.

And why does God "plead" with people he hasn't chosen to save? How is that pleading genuine?

1. Because the death of the wicked gives God no pleasure (Ezek 18:23).
2. As a witness to mankind to show forth God's righteousness (Matt 24:14).
3. 'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who made it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the Potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' (Rom 9:20-21. cf. Isaiah 29:16).

I have no problem dealing with Romans 9 as long as you are willing to equally understand Romans 10 and 11 in relation to it.

Good. Then you deal with Romans 9 and leave me to worry about 10 &11.

Steve
__________________

 

[David Lamb]

In the time you took to write that you could have answered my question.

I have looked again at my post and I am quite happy with what I've written. Your problem is that you don't really understand what Calvinism is. You, along with quite a few others on this forum, are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. Therefore your arguments don't really pertain to what I wrote.

However, If I have time, I'll have another look at your posts tomorrow and write something more detailed in reply. It's past bed-time in England now. :sleep:

Steve

I agree, Steve, with what you wrote about many on this Board seeming to confuse Calvinism with its wicked sibling of the hyper variety. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen it said that Calvinists are not evangelical, don't engage in missionary works, an even that Calvinists teach that you don't need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

Praise God, we do indeed believe in those things!

 

[Iconoclast]

Robert,
you say,

So it did take coaching by a Calvinist to convince you that Calvinism was true. Like I said, no one comes to this belief system without outside influence.
__________________

A christian is or should be teachable. I never denied that since my early years I have sought out the truth on any and all topics,and am still learning much week by week.
I had notebooks and yellow legal pads full of verses on the topic,and word studies. When I was exposed to the theological terms and positions I was firmly in the doctrine of grace camp.
It was not even close.The handful of verses that are used [you know,the ones you post]:tongue3: cannot stand against the whole of scripture.
At this point what I understand is that professed believers who oppose the doctrines of grace have an irrational fear that believing the truth will lessen the desire for evangelism, or lead to a coldness.
Any truth held incorrectly can lead to practical errors,and sometimes in our churches we have to asscess how we are doing in practical terms.
All christians need to do a self examination to make sure we are living in a way that is pleasing to God.
Any church that turns in on itself is not serving God correctly.
let me recommend a sermon on this topic by a Reformed Baptist pastor i enjoy listening to.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9250520468

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7107154239

Let me know what you think of these sermons.Do not worry...he is not going to give a lecture on the 5 points.

 

[MB]

Robert,
you say,


A christian is or should be teachable. I never denied that since my early years I have sought out the truth on any and all topics,and am still learning much week by week.
I had notebooks and yellow legal pads full of verses on the topic,and word studies. When I was exposed to the theological terms and positions I was firmly in the doctrine of grace camp.
It was not even close.The handful of verses that are used [you know,the ones you post]:tongue3: cannot stand against the whole of scripture.

What whole of scripture one little verse here and another one from over there put them together and that spells Calvinism. Everyone of your so called doctrines of grace aren't found in scripture. No where does the Bible even mention them or even come close to there discription.
Total depravity is about an inability to respond yet Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

At this point what I understand is that professed believers who oppose the doctrines of grace have an irrational fear that believing the truth will lessen the desire for evangelism, or lead to a coldness.

Not true the only thing I fear is God.

Any truth held incorrectly can lead to practical errors,and sometimes in our churches we have to asscess how we are doing in practical terms.
All christians need to do a self examination to make sure we are living in a way that is pleasing to God.
Any church that turns in on itself is not serving God correctly.
let me recommend a sermon on this topic by a Reformed Baptist pastor i enjoy listening to.

Just what or who do you think the reformers are? They turned on the Catholic faith and started the reformation of it.


MB

 

[David Lamb]

I have a life outside this forum and tend not to involve myself in enormously long threads. You asked why no one had responded to you. I did respond. End of story. You don't have to like my response for it to be a response.

Steve

I think this is something we all need to bear in mind, before we jump in and condemn others for not replying. And remember also the time differences between different countries.

 

[jbh28]

What whole of scripture one little verse here and another one from over there put them together and that spells Calvinism. Everyone of your so called doctrines of grace aren't found in scripture. No where does the Bible even mention them or even come close to there discription.

Really, the Bible never mentions about the nature of unsaved man, election, the atonement, man's security in Christ? Or is it that you just interpret passages differently?

Total depravity is about an inability to respond yet Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

You may want to do more study against the doctrine you write against. It's not an inability to respond, it's an inability to respond to God without the power of the Spirit.

 

[MB]

So in other words your saying that Calvinists are not biblical? Is that what your saying? dont hold back Robert, tell me your thoughts & feelings. Your equating us to Heretics.....please tell me more.

I don't know about Robert but I consider it at the least 70 % heretical.

All you have to do is prove us wrong. Why not take anyone of the 5 pedals of the tulip for instance and prove they are from the Bible. I'd like to know how you can interpret something to mean one thing when the Bible it self says something entirely different. I suspect your interpretation of it is the problem. Personally I let scripture interpret scripture.
MB

 

[MB]

Really, the Bible never mentions about the nature of unsaved man, election, the atonement, man's security in Christ? Or is it that you just interpret passages differently?


You may want to do more study against the doctrine you write against. It's not an inability to respond, it's an inability to respond to God without the power of the Spirit.

I have done an exaustive study on it and I find it to be nonsense. If it were true regardless of interpretation. You should have no problem proving it with scripture. A false doctrine is a false doctrine unless it can be proved biblically. If you'd like to prove it do your best because I would be happy to unravel your confusion. I would add many Calvinist make the claim you make although they fail every single time to prove said doctrines.
So please show me in scripture where it says man is unable to respond to God or His word with out regeneration.

 

[jbh28]

I have done an exaustive study on it and I find it to be nonsense. If it were true regardless of interpretation. You should have no problem proving it with scripture. A false doctrine is a false doctrine unless it can be proved biblically. If you'd like to prove it do your best because I would be happy to unravel your confusion. I would add many Calvinist make the claim you make although they fail every single time to prove said doctrines.
So please show me in scripture where it says man is unable to respond to God or His word with out regeneration.

Calvinist do show it with Scripture. Again, you keep saying it wrong. It's not that man is "unable to respond to God" but unable to respond correctly. Of course man responds to God. He resists God. It's about man coming to God, not responding to him.

I'll copy from another source because they lay it out better than me doing it.

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

source: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

If you disagree, then it's up to you to show that man can come to Christ without the work of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinist do show it with Scripture. Again, you keep saying it wrong. It's not that man is "unable to respond to God" but unable to respond correctly. Of course man responds to God. He resists God. It's about man coming to God, not responding to him.

I'll copy from another source because they lay it out better than me doing it.

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

source: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

If you disagree, then it's up to you to show that man can come to Christ without the work of God.

Glad your doing this Brother.....I have no tolerance [edit]

 

[webdog]

Glad your doing this Brother.....I have no tolerance for stupidity.

Is that really necessary?

 

[webdog]

Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5)

You left off "from his youth"

The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5),

It does not say we are "born dead", it says we are dead in OUR transgressions and sins that WE used to walk.

he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Honestly, that is a jumbled mess of out of context Scripture thrown together. I will attempt to peel back the layers to expose the truth therei...
John 3:19 People loved the darkness rather than the light
John 8:34 everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Speaking to Jews using their understanding of slavery which was a voluntary action.
Romans 3:10-11 speaks of the fact that man left to themselves would never seek God
1 Corinthians 2:14 states the natural man does not understand the deeper things (v.10) as they are discerned through the spirit (v. 12)

Nothing here that states man is unable to respond to God. That must be interpreted into those passages.

Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin.

Not "therefore", this is the reason FOR the previous condition you outlined above.

Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

Again, this stems off of Romans 1 rejecting the truth presented and exchanging the truth for a lie.

If you disagree, then it's up to you to show that man can come to Christ without the work of God.

Where did he say "without the work of God"? He said without being regenerated. Acts 17:26-27 and Romans 1 clearly show God's work in salvation.

 

[MB]

Calvinist do show it with Scripture. Again, you keep saying it wrong. It's not that man is "unable to respond to God" but unable to respond correctly. Of course man responds to God. He resists God. It's about man coming to God, not responding to him.

Are you correcting your self here because you said earlier;

it's an inability to respond to God without the power of the Spirit.

I disagree entirely man doesn't have the power of the Spirit before Salvation. Not to mention this is only your explanation and this is not found in scripture no matter how you interpret it.

I'll copy from another source because they lay it out better than me doing it.

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

source: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

If you disagree, then it's up to you to show that man can come to Christ without the work of God.

This only proves man to be a sinfull creature. If man were dead in reality it would be to late there are no second chances. The term dead here means to be considered dead by God. Or separated from God because of the man's rebellion. It is not a literal dead spirit that is being spoken of. Nor can it be because man is unable to live with out his spirit. His spirit may be evil but very much alive.

. There isn't even one instance of inability to respond to the gospel in any of the scriptures above. Though romans 8:7 might have made you think so by man being unable to keep the Law. Although even Salvation has not stop man from commiting sin has it?
Paul prayed for his brother jews for there Salvation but told the truth when he said;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Isreal is full of men seeking God who are not saved. Being unable to seek God on your own just isn't true. Romans 3:10 and 11 is a quote from a fool in the Psalms. Fools still say the same thing. They believe we are only making believe. Men can and do seek God however they will not find God with out His help. That help is the gospel convincing the man he needs God once convinced he is convicted and it is the Holy Spirit that does it all. He drives man toward submission though man sometimes will not submit. Submission is not a work it's just giving up the fight against God. Which is a freewill decision. Just like Jonah's decision was to go to Ninevah. He could have just stayed in the belly of the fish.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

I note that you have given no Biblical references for your opinions.

Nor did you with regard to the analogy regarding death. I referred to Roman 6 were Paul speak of believers being dead to sin and in another thread refer James 1 where it speaks of sin giving birth to death rather than the idea that we are born like that (Webdog has been making that case all along the way)

In in the OP and follows posts I have presented numerous passages which indicate man's ability to see, hear, understand and repent if they have yet to grow hardened (Jn 12:32-41; Acts 28:21-28 to name a few), which have gone ignored thus far.

When the Bible speaks of people being 'dead in trespasses and sins' it means at the very least that they cannot come to life in their own strength, any more than Lazarus could.

How do you know that is the intent? Because Calvin told you so? Considering the fact that Paul also refers to believers being dead to sin, I doubt you can just assume that means inability. ESPECIALLY in light of a powerful life giving message of reconciliation. Why would you assume that a message sent to the world with the purpose of bringing reconciliation couldn't be accepted by people because they aren't yet reconciled? Or, put another way, why presume that a message meant to bring life couldn't have that effect on a otherwise "dead" man? You are bringing a VERY big presumption to the text here.

Read Eph 2,especially vs 4-5. When we were spiritually dead, it needed God to make us alive.

WE AGREE. BUT HOW?

Options:

1. Through the means clearly talked about in great detail throughout all of scripture: the Holy Spirit wrought gospel preached by Holy Spirit indwelled people who make up the Bride of Christ.

2. A secret inward irresistible call which regenerates a man making them become willing to listen and obey the gospel. (something never clearly taught or elaborated on in the scriptures)

Notice in the scripture you can find MANY passages which talk about the power of the gospel and it's importance in bringing salvation, but only a few very vague texts which seem (according to Calvinists) to allude to this so called "irresistible call." Why is that?

In further support of this, I offer 1Cor 2:14: 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' Ordinary men and women do not respond to the Gospel because they think it's silly. They may approve of its morality and admire its adherents, but they will not repent and trust in Christ.

He is clearly talking about understanding the "deep things of God" and not merely understanding the clearly revealed gospel truth. How can I be sure? Because he goes on in the next few verses to call the "brethren" there in Corinth "carnal" and unable to receive these things as well.

Prior to the gospel being preached, the gospel truth was a mystery (even to the followers of Christ). Namely, that the love of God and salvation is for all the world, not just Jews. So, God had to discern this mystery for them. HOW DID HE DO THAT? THE GOSPEL. The gospel IS a work of the Spirit, from beginning to end thus ANYTHING the gospel accomplished, whether preached by Paul or you some 2000 years later, is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The problem Calvinists often have is thinking that we are man centered because we think the preaching of the gospel is enough and that is just some "work of man." But ITS NOT. When I preach, filled by the Spirit, that is a WORK OF GOD and HE GETS all GLORY for IT.

This is getting long, so I'll stop there for now and answer the other question in another post...

 

[Skandelon]

However, just as true Christians are kept by the power of God unto salvation (1Peter 1:5) so unconverted people are kept helpless in their state of spiritual death by Satan, until One stronger than he comes to release them (Mark 3:27).

Again, I think we agree on this point in that we both believe that someone stronger must "release" or "free" them. But I just happen to believe that the "truth can set you free." I believe "faith comes through hearing." And the means God has selected to release the captives is the "power of God unto salvation." You believe it is an irresistible inward working that is never clearly taught in scripture, I believe it is the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel which is elaborated upon in depth over and over, but which can be refused by man, which is why they will perish. "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Cor 2:10)

Skandelon wrote: What is God waiting on? Why is he patient and longsuffering with people if people have nothing to do with their own salvation? Is he waiting on himself?

You replied: This is where I think you show a degree of ignorance concerning the Doctrines of Grace. The Bible is very clear that the gates of heaven are wide open (Isaiah 51:1ff; Mark 1:15; John 6:37b; Rev 2:17 etc.). The fact is that people choose not to come, and will continue to do so unless God changes their hearts (John 3:19 etc., etc.). However, when men and women repeatedly turn their backs on the Gospel, God in His righteousness gives them over to their sins and hardness of heart (Prov 1:24ff; Rom 1:18ff). This is Judicial hardening.

1. How does my question reveal ignorance of the DoGs?
2. How does your response answer that question?
3. What does it mean for God to given men over to their sin and hardness of heart if they are born totally hardened to begin with? In other words, explain what change takes place in someone who is just Total Depraved and one who has been "given over to hardening?" Are the both unable to see, hear, understand and repent?

Now I'm sorry if you don't like this or if it makes no sense to you, but that is not my problem. It is the teaching of the Scriptures as I have tried to show you.

I'll remember that reply the next time I make an argument that Calvinists have a rebuttal for which I don't care to respond.

The Jews of that time were hardened for the most part (Rom 11:25)

Which means? They had "become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Read that twice. Notice the word otherwise. It tells us exactly what the Jews "might" have done had they NOT grown hardened. Further Paul contrasts the Jews with the Gentiles "who will listen." Can you explain that?

'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who made it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the Potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' (Rom 9:20-21. cf. Isaiah 29:16).

Who is Paul addressing? Consider objectively these two options:

1. A totally depraved reprobate, who was born without ever having any hope of believing God, is crying out, "Why have you made me non-elect like this?" To which God virtually says, "I can make you for hell and another for heaven if I want." That is my prerogative as God.

OR

2. A temporarily Hardened Jew, who has fully seen and understood the divine attributes of God as He held out his hands to them continually (Rom 10:21) but they freely rejected His appeals to be saved (Matt. 23:37), but who now has been "given over to their rebellion" and "sent a spirit of stupor" so they can't "see, hear, understand and repent." To which Paul is explaining that out of the same lump (Israel) he has reserved a remnant (apostles like himself) for "noble purposes" and left the rest in their hardened rebellion (common purposes.) BUT, even they (the hardened ones), once provoked to envy (Rm 11:14), might leave their unbelief (11:23) and be saved. For He has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Rm 11:32)

 

[quantumfaith]

The irony is that Snow's doctrine aligns with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism and the Seventh-Day Adventists much better than ours. They all teach free will.

I thank YHWH for free will, not Mormonism, Seventh Day or Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I thank YHWH for free will, not Mormonism, Seventh Day or Jehovah's Witness.

Quantum, nobodies telling you that your a heretical believer though.Right.

The next implication is that one isnt Christian....sorry, actually that was the first. "Since we dont see how your belief system is biblical your more like a Mormon.... see the hateful pretzel logic.....next implication, "since we don't see you as biblical (Like us) you cant have salvation (like us) & so you must be one of those Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses...... but your not Christian (like us)".

Its a sad & detestable thing.