Calvinists- How many points?

[Baptist4life]

no sadder than "brothers and sisters in Christ" who think Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace carry dangerous infections into the "body of Christ".

Oh I see, two wrongs DO make a right?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Oh I see, two wrongs DO make a right?

Did I say that ?

 

[Robert Snow]

no sadder than "brothers and sisters in Christ" who think Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace carry dangerous infections into the "body of Christ".

How else can I say that, in my opinion, Calvinism is wrong and does damage to the cause of Christ. It's not the particular people who I despise, it's the teachings of Calvinism. The people are sincere, just sincerely wrong.

 

[pinoybaptist]

How else can I say that, in my opinion, Calvinism is wrong and does damage to the cause of Christ. It's not the particular people who I despise, it's the teachings of Calvinism. The people are sincere, just sincerely wrong.

okay, what damage does it do to the cause of Christ ?
do you sincerely think that any human power can do damage to a cause if it is from and of God ?

 

[Robert Snow]

okay, what damage does it do to the cause of Christ ?
do you sincerely think that any human power can do damage to a cause if it is from and of God ?

No, a person cannot damage God, but they can teach error which influences what people believe. People are lead astray by cults all the time (No, I am not saying that Calvinism is a cult).

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, a person cannot damage God, but they can teach error which influences what people believe.
People are lead astray by cults all the time (No, I am not saying that Calvinism is a cult).

Well now here's an example.
As Primitive Baptists we believe worship ought to be solemnly directed to the Sovereign God alone and therefore we do not include in our worship such things as might appeal to the flesh and direct praise to man instead of God and so we have no choirs, no musical instruments, no special numbers, nothing that will cause praise no matter how miniscule and in passing to a choir director, or a musician, or a singer, and so our worship services consist of praying, congregational singing, and preaching.
We believe in the Doctrine of Grace.

Now, let's say that half a block from us is a Pentecostal church. Well, they're not only Pentecostal, they're four gospel, and so they have all these trimmings of today's "praise and worship" services. Choruses sung repeatedly by praise leaders, drums, cymbals, guitars, keyboards, the works, and then there's all these hand waving and crying and tongue-ing :tongue3: going on and they have 20 minutes of preaching and everybody goes home feeling good and all bubbly and admiring the band and the "dance worship" and so on, and WE the PB's think they are in error, while they, the Four Gospels, think we are in error.

So, which of us are now cursed to hell because of error, do you think ? From whom did Christ un-power His blood ? Pray identify the error that each of us may have that may cause God to tell Christ to un-know His children in both groups ?

Error is the way of this fallen world, sir.
Even on this board one can spot many errors.
You call the Doctrine of Grace error.
We call your system of soteriology, error.
Whom then between us of the Doctrine of Grace, and you of the God-allows-man-choice-without-sacrificing-His-Sovereignty-philosophy will He disown and remove from His roll ?
If we say you, what is our basis for it ?
If you say, us, what is your basis for it ?

No, the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, says it best:

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth .
Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died , yea rather , that is risen again , who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us....

 

[Robert Snow]

Well now here's an example.
As Primitive Baptists we believe worship ought to be solemnly directed to the Sovereign God alone and therefore we do not include in our worship such things as might appeal to the flesh and direct praise to man instead of God and so we have no choirs, no musical instruments, no special numbers, nothing that will cause praise no matter how miniscule and in passing to a choir director, or a musician, or a singer, and so our worship services consist of praying, congregational singing, and preaching.
We believe in the Doctrine of Grace.

Now, let's say that half a block from us is a Pentecostal church. Well, they're not only Pentecostal, they're four gospel, and so they have all these trimmings of today's "praise and worship" services. Choruses sung repeatedly by praise leaders, drums, cymbals, guitars, keyboards, the works, and then there's all these hand waving and crying and tongue-ing :tongue3: going on and they have 20 minutes of preaching and everybody goes home feeling good and all bubbly and admiring the band and the "dance worship" and so on, and WE the PB's think they are in error, while they, the Four Gospels, think we are in error.

So, which of us are now cursed to hell because of error, do you think ? From whom did Christ un-power His blood ? Pray identify the error that each of us may have that may cause God to tell Christ to un-know His children in both groups ?

Error is the way of this fallen world, sir.
Even on this board one can spot many errors.
You call the Doctrine of Grace error.
We call your system of soteriology, error.
Whom then between us of the Doctrine of Grace, and you of the God-allows-man-choice-without-sacrificing-His-Sovereignty-philosophy will He disown and remove from His roll ?
If we say you, what is our basis for it ?
If you say, us, what is your basis for it ?

No, the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, says it best:

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth .
Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died , yea rather , that is risen again , who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us....

Two very bad assumptions here. One is that the Primitive Baptist don't appeal to the flesh. I say thy appeal more than the hypocrites do. They claim to be holy, yet they revel in self-righteousness.

Second, is that the others are not allowing God to be sovereign. God, in His sovereignty can give man free will and still be sovereign, something you seem unable to grasp.

 

[jbh28]

Oh I see, two wrongs DO make a right?

But two wrights made an airplane!!!

... sorry, just haven't said that one in a long time.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Two very bad assumptions here. One is that the Primitive Baptist don't appeal to the flesh. I say thy appeal more than the hypocrites do. They claim to be holy, yet they revel in self-righteousness.

Second, is that the others are not allowing God to be sovereign. God, in His sovereignty can give man free will and still be sovereign, something you seem unable to grasp.

Robert, I have tried to discuss with you in a civil way, but your hatred of Primitive Baptists just always seem to get the best of you, and you end up painting my people in a bad light. You are so miserable.
I feel sorry for you.
May God comfort you.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Six pointer. In old days there was a "presupposition" that was understood and held by all. Sadly, today, it is held by few. So maybe we need a new "first" point, then the conventional 5.

1 - God is the Sovereign God in control of all things, and I'm not

2 - Role of man in salvation: Complete inability to do any righteous thing in the sight of God and willingly on his way to hell; if he's going to be saved it will be 100% of God (see #1)

3 - Role of God the Father in salvation: Before the foundation of the world He selected some of the hell-bound, hell-deserving based on no condition or foreseen merit (which, of course, they couldn't have anyway) to receive grace

4 - Role of God the Son in salvation: Vicarious substitutionary atonement to assuredly redeem all those God selected (see #3) and not lose any, allowing the Father to then justify sinners and adopt them as His children

5 - Role of God the holy Spirit in salvation: Effectively work inwardly in the hearts of those the Father selected (see #3) and for whom the Son actually atoned for (see #4) to regenerate them with a new spiritual nature so that they could repent of sin and believe the Gospel (of which they were previously incapable (see #2)

6 - Role of the Triune Godhead in salvation: To keep all those selected (see #3), atoned for (see #4) and regenerated (see #4) for all eternity

 

[glfredrick]

That entire comment makes no sense at all. I grew up in Kentucky and Ohio, and I cannot believe that Calvinism is a Baptist doctrine. I believe in "whosoever will" not in "only those I chose".

"Whosoever will" are the elect of God. No problem with reconciliation of these two "friends" (ala Spurgeon).

You need to get out more... Plenty of churches with Reformed Doctrine in Kentucky. Southern Seminary in Louisville is considered by many the headquarters for those practicing the Doctrines of Grace (also called Reformed, Calvinistic, etc.).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps there should be a follow up poll to find out how many of these people who are Calvinists were Free Willers before becoming Calvinists. And then why the conversion.

 

[Rippon]

Five points is not true Calvinism, they are just points addressing some points of Arminianism. Thus, I hold to 5 points but I also hold to many more.

This needs to be repeated. Calvinism is a lot larger and more full-orbed than the famous 5 propositions.(And the famous T.U.L.I.P is a severely shortened version of the decisions of the Synod of Dort)

 

[Rippon]

THAT is where Calvinism goes away from being Biblical, to me. Yet that is what they would have you believe, because I've heard them say that to my face.

When "Calvinism" departs from being biblical it is not really Calvinism.

It sounds as if you have never met a Calvinist face-to-face. That is quite unusual for a man your age. Have you ever heard of Rolfe Barnard?

 

[Rippon]

Biblical error is still error no matter how long it has infected the church. It took a long time for the church to rid itself of this destructive belief. However, in today's lazy, self-serving society, Calvinism fits right in! No wonder it has reinfected the church.

Another nonsense quote for the week by Sir Robert. So,in your view Calvinism fits hand-in-glove with today's lazy,self-serving society! Whew! Please try to defend that super-silly charge.

 

[Rippon]

Here is another good thing to understand what Calvinists believe. Not trying to show you that you should believe it, but for you to understand what we do believe. http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/avoidingconfusion.html

Colin Maxwell is a fine man. I have quoted him on the BB as far back as 9/12/07. He sets things out nicely.

 

[Jerome]

"Whosoever will" are the elect of God. No problem with reconciliation of these two "friends" (ala Spurgeon).

You need to get out more... Plenty of churches with Reformed Doctrine in Kentucky. Southern Seminary in Louisville is considered by many the headquarters for those practicing the Doctrines of Grace (also called Reformed, Calvinistic, etc.).

Charles Spurgeon, "The Whole Machinery of Salvation":

[Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.]

when the Lord says "Whosoever," I cannot get out of that circle. It is a big net that seems to entangle all men in its meshes. "Whosoever." If I call upon the name of the Lord, if you call upon the name of the Lord, if the man who lies upstairs a-dying calls upon the name of the Lord, we shall be saved. What a wide word that "whosoever" is!

Charles Spurgeon, "Though He Were Dead":

[John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?]

Now notice, to the reception of Christ by faith there is no limit. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever"—I am deeply in love with that word "whosoever." It is a splendid word.

 

[glfredrick]

Charles Spurgeon, "The Whole Machinery of Salvation":

[Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.]


Charles Spurgeon, "Though He Were Dead":

[John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?]

Since we cannot have faith in what (or whom) we do not know, God necessarily precedes our faith, and indeed, the Scriptures tell us that faith is a gift of God given to us. That we can have faith is evidence that God has gifted us, so no need to reconcile faith and "whosoever."

 

[Baptist4life]

3 - Role of God the Father in salvation: Before the foundation of the world He selected some of the hell-bound, hell-deserving based on no condition or foreseen merit (which, of course, they couldn't have anyway) to receive grace

That goes against everything I believe..................that is not the God of the Bible. Does He know who will accept Him and who will not? Yes, I know that He does. Did He make that choice for them? No, He did not.


And please, don't try to tell me I don't understand it. I have spent quite a bit of time (a few years, actually) TRYING to understand how Calvinism can "fit" into Christianity..............it doesn't.

 

[jbh28]

...TRYING to understand how Calvinism can "fit" into Christianity..............it doesn't.

So you are saying that Calvinists are not Christians? You need to be careful with your words. Calvinism is part of Christianity, just a part you don't agree with, and that's fine.

And they Bible says that He chose us, so I believe it.