I got myself in trouble

[Steadfast Fred]

There are five indictments seen in Romans 1.


1. An indictment of ingratitude (Rom. 1:21). They knew God, but rejected him for vain imaginations.

2. An indictment of insolence (Rom. 1:22). They claimed to be wise, yet in all of their wisdom they became fools.

3. An indictment of idolatry (Rom. 1:23). They began to worship idols.

4. An indictment of immorality (Rom. 1:24-27). God gave them over the lusts that were in their hearts and they practiced homosexuality and lesbianism.

5. An indictment of incorrigibility (Rom. 1:28-32). They came to the point that even though they knew God, they did not even want to think about Him. So, He gave them over to a reprobate mind.

They knew they were doing things God did not approve of, but in their depravity, they continued in them.

They had rejected God altogether, and for this, God had rejected them.

 

[Havensdad]

I'll quote Albert Barnes.
Matt 13:12

Verse 12. Whosoever hath, etc. This is a proverbial mode of speaking. It means that a man who improves what light, grace, and opportunities he has, shall have them increased. From him that improves them not, it is proper that they should be taken away. The Jews had many opportunities of learning the truth, and some light still lingered among them. But they were gross and sensual, and misimproved them, and it was a just judgment that they should be deprived of them. Superior knowledge was given to the disciples of Christ; they improved it, however slowly, and the promise was that it should be greatly increased.

Why not quote Jesus, instead of Mr. Barnes?

Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

It has not been given to these people, to "hear" "see" or "understand." To the disciples, though, it had been given...

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.


Now, that makes a lot more sense!

Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

 

[Havensdad]

There are five indictments seen in Romans 1.


1. An indictment of ingratitude (Rom. 1:21). They knew God, but rejected him for vain imaginations.

So did I, before Christ got a hold of me. So did Paul, too...

"we all once lived in the passions of our flesh,"

2. An indictment of insolence (Rom. 1:22). They claimed to be wise, yet in all of their wisdom they became fools.

Ah yes. So did I, before Christ got a hold of me. I was an evolutionist, then a Wiccan. I thought I had "science" on my side...

3. An indictment of idolatry (Rom. 1:23). They began to worship idols.

As did I.

4. An indictment of immorality (Rom. 1:24-27). God gave them over the lusts that were in their hearts and they practiced homosexuality and lesbianism.

God gave them over to innapropriate relations, among which two examples were homosexuality and lesbianism. Bestiality, adultery, and pornography would be some more examples.

5. An indictment of incorrigibility (Rom. 1:28-32). They came to the point that even though they knew God, they did not even want to think about Him. So, He gave them over to a reprobate mind.

These scriptures are saying EVERYONE knows that there is a God, and deny Him in order to give in to their lust. God then gives them over to an "unapproved" or "debased" mind. It does not say "He gave up on them."

Paul affirms in Ephesians 2, that we had these same minds, before Christ.

They knew they were doing things God did not approve of, but in their depravity, they continued in them.

So did I, before Christ.

They had rejected God altogether, and for this, God had rejected them.

Yep. And this was every man woman and Child, outside of Christ. We were given up, forsaken, destined for wrath. This is why Christ had to BUY us back.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Two very good post worth reading a couple of times. Thanks Havensdad for the time you put into these two post.

 

[J.D.]

Havensdad is certainly right about the context of the passage -- "them" or "they" can only be understood as "mankind", all of mankind as a created being. The passage will not make sense with any other interpretation. It is not separating out a special class of sinner, but is condemning the whole of humanity. Paul summarizes with "ALL have sinned" and "there is NONE righteous, no, not one".

 

[Tom Butler]

I have become convinced that the harshest judgment God can impose on any rebellious human being is to leave them alone.

 

[Robert Snow]

No. And I am proud of you (for what that may be worth to you).

What I am saddened by is the shallowness of these ladies who do not know that God does this.

NNE who has been a Christian for a few years or more should not know this.

Anyone who thinks God would NOT do this has made a false god to suit them rather than submitting themselves to the God of the Bible.

Good job, Amy.

It is this gobbly-gook Christianity that is killing our culture.

It is Oprah Winfrey, feel-good idolatry.

Because we believe that Christians are always supposed to be syrupy sweet the next thing is that our theology is supposed to be syrupy sweet.

NEITHER is true.

But when you accept one the next is destined to follow.

Oprah Winfrey and Joel Osteen and others like them have rendered the church in America impotent and toothless. She is a lion, de-clawed and de-fanged.

And until she gets her claws and teeth back she is WORTHLESS in this culture of ours. She is no King of the Jungle as she should be- as she once was in the days of the Puritans and the Great Awakening. She is pussy cat who sits in the lap of this culture and is petted and fed by it rather than leading it.

It will not be until the teeth return to our theology and the claws to our spirits that we will be a force in this nation again.

When you start responding to your own postings, you have too much time on your hand.

 

[Winman]

I have become convinced that the harshest judgment God can impose on any rebellious human being is to leave them alone.

Exactly. As another poster quoted, God said he will not always strive with flesh. Now "flesh" speaks of the unsaved. There is a point at which even God draws the line. Only God knows this point in time. It is not that he does not want to save the person, it is that it is pointless to strive with them any longer.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

God is not willing that any should perish, but is longsuffering. God gives all men space to repent. But at some point that only God knows he has had enough, and simply "gives up" on that person.

 

[John of Japan]

When you start responding to your own postings, you have too much time on your hand.

And then he called his own quote "gobbly-gook Christianity." What was that all about?

(Just picking on you Luke.)

 

[John of Japan]

No, again, I did not agree with Amy. I agree, to a point, that it is not about Christians, and the need for them to watch their "p's and q's" so to speak. However, Amy went on to say this...

Then you apparently changed your view in there somewhere, since your first post indicated it was about the sins of all. It would have greatly helped my understanding of what you were trying to say if you had said in your first post where you agreed and where you disagreed with Amy, instead of just saying she was wrong; or, if you changed your mind somewhere, saying so.

I'm not trying to rebuke or berate you, just trying to figure it all out.

 

[psalms109:31]

But not all of humanity has rejected God. I have always believed in God even before I was saved. I have always believed the bible to be the word of God. I did not reject the light that God has given every man which is the revelation of God as creator.
When a person rejects the creator, he starts a downward spiral into idolatry and every kind of sin there is. His heart is darkened, he becomes a fool. The fool has said in his heart there is no God.

Jesus said that to him who has more will be given, but to him who has not even what he has will be taken away. I believe that is exactly what Paul is talking about.


However, this does fly in the face of Calvinism.

I have loved God most of my known life when I was very young my next door neighbor told me that God loved the world, the Creator of the universe loved me. The Son part I didn't understand but God's love I did. I was a lonar and God is my friend, I was that crazy kid who you walked by talking to himself.

I wanted to be given super powers to change the world. I said I wouldn't use it for me, but for Him. I was 11 when the Father introduced me to His Son the one who will change the world.

When I came to Jesus I was no better than anyone else, I was humbled by Jesus a sinner repenting on my hands and knees for what I did to Him for my sins.

I understood what you meant by believing in Him all your life and it doesn't show that you are better than anyone else, you knew you needed saving.

Proverbs 22:6
Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.

 

[Havensdad]

Then you apparently changed your view in there somewhere, since your first post indicated it was about the sins of all. It would have greatly helped my understanding of what you were trying to say if you had said in your first post where you agreed and where you disagreed with Amy, instead of just saying she was wrong; or, if you changed your mind somewhere, saying so.

I'm not trying to rebuke or berate you, just trying to figure it all out.

Brother,

Either you missed my first post, or you need to work on your English skills. I said,
"Paul is describing the fall of mankind into depravity, and the reason that the gospel is necessary."

Don't know how I could have gotten any clearer than that.

 

[Amy.G]

No. And I am proud of you (for what that may be worth to you).

What I am saddened by is the shallowness of these ladies who do not know that God does this.

NNE who has been a Christian for a few years or more should not know this.

Anyone who thinks God would NOT do this has made a false god to suit them rather than submitting themselves to the God of the Bible.

Good job, Amy.

Thanks.

 

[John of Japan]

Brother,

Either you missed my first post, or you need to work on your English skills. I said,
"Paul is describing the fall of mankind into depravity, and the reason that the gospel is necessary."

Don't know how I could have gotten any clearer than that.

Here is your entire first post:

Amy,

I would say you are wrong, but not for the reasons you listed. If you look in verse 2:1, Paul lets it be known that Chapter 1 is about everyone, not just some special, extra sinful people. Paul is describing the fall of mankind into depravity, and the reason that the gospel is necessary. Notice that in verse 2:1, he says that EVERYONE practices these same things...

So you said Amy was wrong. Was she wrong on everything? Here is part of her OP:

The teacher (it's a women's class) was saying that we have to be careful that we don't drift into these bad behaviors. I said that it was not about Christians, but was about people who repeatedly reject God even though He has revealed Himself to them. Eventually He will give them up or cut them off so to speak as a judgment against them and at that point it is impossible for them to seek God or repent, leaving them lost.

So according to you this was wrong, since you said Amy was wrong. If Amy was wrong than the teacher was right and you agree with the teacher. Therefore it is entirely logical to think that you believe that Romans 1 is about Christians, therefore the teacher of the class was right (since Amy was wrong), therefore as the teacher said, the passage means that we as Christians should interpret Romans 1 as meaning we should be careful what we do.

I do appreciate that you backed up later and said it wasn't necessarily about Christians.

 

[Havensdad]

Here is your entire first post:

So you said Amy was wrong. Was she wrong on everything? Here is part of her OP:

So according to you this was wrong, since you said Amy was wrong. If Amy was wrong than the teacher was right and you agree with the teacher. Therefore it is entirely logical to think that you believe that Romans 1 is about Christians, therefore the teacher of the class was right (since Amy was wrong), therefore as the teacher said, the passage means that we as Christians should interpret Romans 1 as meaning we should be careful what we do.

Not at all. Both of them were wrong. I told her specifically that it was not for the "reasons she listed." I was very clear, in my first post. I was not agreeing that this was about Christians, but about everyone before Christ. I am really not sure why you are having difficulty with this.

Amy is wrong: this is not about some extra sinful person who has rejected God so much, they are beyond His grace.

Her teacher is wrong: This is not about a Christian minding their p's and q's.

Everyone else understood what I was saying, though they might have disagreed with me. Not sure why you are having such a problem understanding.

I do appreciate that you backed up later and said it wasn't necessarily about Christians.

Never backed up. I said from my very first post that it was about the entirety of mankind falling into depravity. Unless you think this happened after Christ came, I am not sure how you could think I was talking about Christians.

So, what I am saying has not changed. You have just now caught up with everyone else, and now understand what I was actually saying from my first post.

 

[Luke2427]

When you start responding to your own postings, you have too much time on your hand.

When you start searching out these kinds of things to post about you have too much time on your hand.

But then again, you keep telling me you are so old- maybe you don't have that much time after all.

Use what time you have left to get some education. It will do you and those around you a great deal of good.

God bless!

 

[John of Japan]

Not at all. Both of them were wrong. I told her specifically that it was not for the "reasons she listed." I was very clear, in my first post. I was not agreeing that this was about Christians, but about everyone before Christ. I am really not sure why you are having difficulty with this.

Amy is wrong: this is not about some extra sinful person who has rejected God so much, they are beyond His grace.

Her teacher is wrong: This is not about a Christian minding their p's and q's.

Everyone else understood what I was saying, though they might have disagreed with me. Not sure why you are having such a problem understanding.



Never backed up. I said from my very first post that it was about the entirety of mankind falling into depravity. Unless you think this happened after Christ came, I am not sure how you could think I was talking about Christians.

So, what I am saying has not changed. You have just now caught up with everyone else, and now understand what I was actually saying from my first post.

I think if you were to go back and read my posts you'd see that I did understand what you said and disagreed with you. But I certainly don't feel you interacted with my posts but rather with me personally. Instead I had you saying I needed to read the passage, I didn't understand English, I was condescending (when I was trying to show respect for you). And you're surprised that I'm out of sorts with you? I thought you were different, but apparantly you're one more of the young bloods on the BB who have no respect for age.

I'm out of here. I've interacted with Amy and had a good time. No need for my further comments.

 

[webdog]

Use what time you have left to get some education. It will do you and those around you a great deal of good.

...because that is what life is all about...education.

 

[Luke2427]

...because that is what life is all about...education.

Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

 

[Jerome]

Three times in this chapter it says God "gave them up". . . .Eventually He will give them up or cut them off so to speak as a judgment against them and at that point it is impossible for them to seek God or repent, leaving them lost.

Kim Riddlebarger (sermon online at monergism.com):

we need to be very careful here. To the English ear, the expression “God gave them over,” has an eerie finality to it. Paul means that human sin and idolatry have inevitable consequences, in which God ceases his restraint upon the downward pull of human sin. But this does not mean that such people are beyond the reach of God’s grace. This is why we must always keep in mind Paul’s comments in I Corinthians 6:9-11

Here is I Cor. 6:9-11 again (I cited it in post 12]):

I Cor. 6:9-11

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.