Yes.....as that is exactly what is being taught;
It is good to see what is taught in the scripture Robert.....you should try it!:thumbsup:
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What's the difference between Fred and Frank?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Yes.....as that is exactly what is being taught;
It is good to see what is taught in the scripture Robert.....you should try it!:thumbsup:
saturneptune
New Member
No one ever said you were mean, and no doubt you are a good pastor. All I know, if you read my salvation experience in another thread, I think the A? thread, what I experienced, and had the Lord not come to me, chosen me, I would be lost. Chose me means I did not decide the issue.
One thing you should understand, I part company on this side who use phrases like "preach a different gospel" or think the Lord makes us robots to the extent we do not need missions or evangelism, because faith comes by hearing........... etc. I have no doubt that those who disagree with me on election are saved, walking close to the Lord, and serve him well as pastors, and other leadership positions.
To answer one of your points yesterday, the revelation the Lord gives in Romans 1, is enough only to realize there is a Creator. The Gospel message and the Lord is what takes the revelation to salvation.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Then please, with all respect and love, I beseech you my brother to explain to me why in the very following passage that Paul makes this point in the Acts 28 chapter he writes, " For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
As you can see, this is not just about what happened in the past, it is about what is happing at that point in time. Israel was being hardened, but the Gentiles "WILL" listen. Can you explain that please. (I'm trying to be more loving so I don't offend anyone
)Not all scholars agree with that assessment. Many think that means that the Gentiles need to become established in the church, because the Jews would have kept them out because of pride etc. In fact, since Paul anticipates that his ministry to the Gentiles could provoke some of the hardened Jews to envy and thus salvation shows he didn't think of those hardened as being reprobates without hope of salvation. They could "leave their unbelief and be grafted back in again" according to Paul.
This is referring to men like Paul who God picked from Israel to carry the message to rest of the world. It is through their ministry the Gentiles hear and the Jews are provoked.
Those who died in their hardened states are in hell, I agree, but my point was that they didn't have to die in that hardened state because they could have been provoked and saved if they left their unbelief as Paul clearly explained, proving that Paul didn't think of those being hardened as non-elect.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
OK.
Thanks for explaining.
Brother, I was pointing out that when he gave a simple, short response, you complained he was vague. When he elaborated in detail, you complained he wrote too much. Nothing more or less.
I didn't say you were mean.
I said I find it ironic that you accuse people of being stubborn and prideful as a matter of course, without any awareness that you do the same thing in the very next sentence you post.
However, I do apologize to you. I haven't contributed to the conversation and have only interjected myself to criticize you. Shame on me.
Please pardon the interuption.
peace to you
raying:glfredrick
New Member
Ironically, everything you've said here is Calvinistic!
Robert Snow
New Member
I would imagine that where we part company is when I say that all men who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit has a choice of whether or not to obey the Gospel call or to reject it.
glfredrick
New Member
You did not say that above...
And, even that I would say is Calvinist. We do not suggest that man cannot resist God! The Scriptures say so. But God can, and does, "DRAW" us unto Himself (not force, not coerce -- DRAW). I was one of the one's drawn to God. I was not looking, not seeking, not searching, and in fact, I was an evil person who would do almost anything to keep people away from God in any form or fashion because I hated the concept of God (note that I could not hate God, for in my mind there was no God!). Yet, God was so gracious and merciful to me that He drew me lovingly to Himself, convinced me that He was real, and then, through the power of the Holy Spirit, saved me in Christ.
Had I "resisted God" for the first 27 years of my life? You bet I did. Did God coerce me? Nope. When I came to God, I came because I WANTED TO. It is at that stage right there -- the WANTED TO stage -- that many who hold a very human-centered theology think that THEY had something to do with the entire process -- not realizing that God had already been at work in them for quite some time -- sometimes decades!
Skandelon,
I would like to see the level of interaction ...upgrade a bit, now
The Covenant curses from the song of Moses DEUT28-33 have come upon the physical nation of Israel...In MT 20-25
particularly MT 21:43
Remember that in MT 10...the disciples were only to go among the nation of Israel....now after the cross,,,the whole world,Jn 3:16.....
Does this help answer it, or do you mean something else?
Notice in this section, psalm 2 and psalm 16 are said to be fulfilled....it is all happening at the cross.
look at the 15 verses I posted earlier, Isa 1:9,etc
Would like to elaborate more, but I still have to drive more tonight, later on.
First, I do not have thin skin...in fact I might be a bit on the rough side of things....if I come at you a bit.....feel free to come back at me.If you offer biblical correction...Lord willing I will welcome it. We should desire truth and to be edifying each other more than what we do in here.
I would like to see the level of interaction ...upgrade a bit, now
Here is a great portion of scripture that speaks directly to the issue in real time...if you link it with the 15 Isa verses in the other post, I believe you will see it fits together very well.
The Covenant curses from the song of Moses DEUT28-33 have come upon the physical nation of Israel...In MT 20-25
particularly MT 21:43
Remember that in MT 10...the disciples were only to go among the nation of Israel....now after the cross,,,the whole world,Jn 3:16.....
Does this help answer it, or do you mean something else?
Notice in this section, psalm 2 and psalm 16 are said to be fulfilled....it is all happening at the cross.
The Romans 11 passage states that they were broken off in unbelief,,the Acts 13:46 supports this idea....I do not think much has changed since then.Ofcourse there will always be other points of view....I read and consider any that seem possible, until i can rule them out.
well yes, but also the whole early church ,the first 10000 were Jews,give or take a few, then samaritans , then gentiles
look at the 15 verses I posted earlier, Isa 1:9,etc
Would like to elaborate more, but I still have to drive more tonight, later on.
Last edited by a moderator:
[QUOTE
With regard to my responses to iconoclast, how would you respond if I quoted a dozen verses or so without any explanations or interpretation and just expected you to believe that they mean what I think they must mean to support my views? Does that seem reasonable to you? I was merely calling him out on that point and I think I did so quite respectfully.
][/QUOTE]
Skandelon, let me just explain something...I drive x country for a living.I am in Nebraska now, I will Get to Iowa tonight before I sleep.
the verses I offered are good verses if you look at the context in the OT.Then see how the Holy Spirit had Paul use them after the cross. I only had time to point you to what I think are the answer to both of your questions.I did not have time to elaborate.
The three links are good,[on psa110]even though i might not agree with all those men believe.
I was not using the verses just to fill space. I recalled them from a class i taught several years ago....If you take time with them you will rejoice in the truths....set aside the cal-arm debate for awhile....and just see what God has done in redemptive History....I really have to get back on the road now, more, later.
With regard to my responses to iconoclast, how would you respond if I quoted a dozen verses or so without any explanations or interpretation and just expected you to believe that they mean what I think they must mean to support my views? Does that seem reasonable to you? I was merely calling him out on that point and I think I did so quite respectfully.
][/QUOTE]
Skandelon, let me just explain something...I drive x country for a living.I am in Nebraska now, I will Get to Iowa tonight before I sleep.
the verses I offered are good verses if you look at the context in the OT.Then see how the Holy Spirit had Paul use them after the cross. I only had time to point you to what I think are the answer to both of your questions.I did not have time to elaborate.
The three links are good,[on psa110]even though i might not agree with all those men believe.
I was not using the verses just to fill space. I recalled them from a class i taught several years ago....If you take time with them you will rejoice in the truths....set aside the cal-arm debate for awhile....and just see what God has done in redemptive History....I really have to get back on the road now, more, later.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
When did I say he wrote too much? I only had an issue with quoting unexplained verses. I could cut and paste verses all day long, but they don't mean anything if you just read them with your Calvinistic premise...you would just believe what you've always believed about those verses. That is why we need verses quoted in context with some explanation as to how you interpret it and why. That is all I was requesting. Understand?
I know I'm prideful and stubborn, but that is different because I'm write and they are wrong. See what I mean?
Awww, I don't mind. You are usually very nice to converse with...
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That helps to know. Thanks for the explanation. I will read through those and your last post as well. Thanks for the time. I'll get back to you on this after I have a chance to wade through those...
Robert Snow
New Member
Right. I added to my statement. A person cannot say everything in every posting.
I don't doubt what you say regarding God's working in your life. However, God doesn't work the same way with everyone.
I was walking by a church in Houston, Texas on Saturday February 22, 1969, when I was seventeen years old, and had a desire to go to the church services. Me and a friend went the next day to the morning services. One week later, I returned and was under conviction by the Holy Spirit. I accepted Jesus as my Savior that morning. Later, in talking to my friend, he rejected the Gospel. You will probably say I was drawn by God and had no choice but to respond to the Gospel. I say I was drawn by God and chose to obey. BTW, my friend died a within two years of a rare liver condition.
And yet the wicked do live amongst us & eventually we all die wither it be a liver condition, heart attack, stroke, cancer or old age. Your day will come but you have the joy of knowing that you will be in heaven rather than Newark NJ (my own impression of hell). :tongue3:
saturneptune
New Member
Well, buddy, you know how it is. That original sin will get your every time. The only way to have escaped that would be to have been transported here by aliens apart from Adam. In you case, which is it?
glfredrick
New Member
Of course I'll say that God drew you. You walked past LOTS of churches before that point. God at work in precisely the way explained by Calvinist doctrine.
Do you think that it was something of yourself that led to to that church and convicted you? The Holy Spirit was already at work! Just think... If He hadn't you would have said, "nah..." and walked on past.
God evidently did not draw your friend... Sad.
Robert Snow
New Member
I don't know about New Jersey, but I bet the temperature is closer to the temperature of hell in Texas.
I heard about a man in hell one time who had the opportunity to come to Houston and he declined. At least in hell he didn't have to worry about the traffic! :laugh:
Hello Skandelon,
At last I have a little time to reply as promised to your post on the 'Total Depravity=Hardening' thread. I tried to post it there, but the thread is closed.
You wrote:-
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." This He said, signifying by what death He would die
I presume that your position is that our Lord draws every single person to Himself, but clearly that cannot be the case because, alas, not every single person is drawn to Christ. If He had said, “I will try to draw all peoples to Myself,” you might have a point, but of course He didn’t say that. What the text means is that He will draw people of all nations, Jew and Gentile alike to Himself (cf. John 10:16). It is very clear that the Father gave to the Son a people, drawn from every nation and language, and He has redeemed them through the cross. This is evidenced by John 6:39 (cf. also John 17:2, 6). Our Lord has not lost one single person of those that the Father gave Him. Therefore your position is erroneous.
John 12:39-41 does not help you either.
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
Satan has blinded unbelievers and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot believe. All the preaching and all the persuading in the world cannot help them. “No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man” (Mark 3:27). We are all under the domination of Satan, blind and dead in our sins, until Christ, the stronger man comes and rescues us.
Yet it must be understood that men and women are willing captives of Satan. They find the world much more attractive than Christ and will not turn to Him because they will not give up their sinful lifestyles (John 3:19). And everyone of us on this board was once in the same condition (Rom 3:9ff; Titus 3:3-6). People who hear Gospel preaching will sometimes be briefly affected (Mark 4:16-17; John 6:66; Acts 24:25; 26:28), but unless God opens their hearts, the effect will be only temporary.
I suppose that your reference to Acts 28 centres around v27 and the word ‘Grown.’ Your argument is presumably that people’s hearts are not dull by nature, but they grow that way. This interpretation is in direct conflict with a host of texts, including Rom 3:11. ‘There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.’ Therefore there must be another interpretation that will harmonize the texts. When people hear the Gospel, they hear it but they do not understand it (v26) and their hearts grow dull and they reject it. When they do that consistently, God, in His justice, hardens them so that they no longer hear at all (v27).
I wrote:-
Well, to take the last remarks first, I find quite enough very clear texts to convince me of an irresistible call.
How did Paul come to believe? ‘But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me….’ (Gal 1:15-16).
How did Lydia come to believe. Did she open her own heart to receive the word preached by Paul? Did Paul open her heart to receive the word? No and no. ‘The Lord opened her heart to receive the things spoken by Paul’ (Acts 16:14).
How does anyone come to believe? ‘You must be born again’ (John 3:7). Nowour Lord could have used a number of expressions here: ‘You must start again,’ ‘you must take a new turning,’ ‘make a new beginning,’ but all these are things I can do for myself. The one thing over which I had no control, in which I was totally dependent upon another, was my birth. It was irresistible; there was no option for me to stay in the womb! And as if that was not enough, the word translated ‘again’ (Gk. anothen) could also be translated ‘from above.’ We need a birth that only God can give. ‘Every good and perfect gift is from above (Gk. anothen[/I])……Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.' Whose will? Yours or mine, deciding to be born again? I don’t think so.
The real problem that I have with you is that when the Bible says, ‘dead,’ you think. ‘wounded.’
Dead is dead, not wounded. Blind is not short-sighted; deaf is not hard of hearing and leprosy is not acne. They were all utterly incurable conditions in ancient Israel.
Listen, Lazarus is dead, right? He’s been in the tomb for four days. How shall we bring Lazarus back to life? Well, we can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much fun it will be when he is. We can tell him of all the disadvantages of being dead. We can tell him how much we miss him and are looking forward to him being alive again. We can tell him anything we want for as long as we want as eloquently as we can, but it won’t help. He’s dead, you see, and he can’t hear us.
It’s actually even worse than that, because between you and me, Lazarus is a real stinker (John 11:39). He’s not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sin; he’s in a bad odour with God. He has no right to come back to life. So who will bring Lazarus back to life? Not me, and not you, no matter how wonderful and eloquent your preaching. It is when the Son of God says, “Lazarus, come forth!” that Lazarus will obey the irresistible summons of the Lord Jesus, saying,
Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.
Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.
Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.
Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin’s dark sepulcher.
Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The chains of my captivity. William Tidd Matson
Well, this post has grown exceedingly long, and I’ve run out of time. I’m aware that I haven’t answered your question about hardening. I will try to do that at a later stage, but it probably won’t be this weekend, I’m afraid, because I’m too busy.
Steve
At last I have a little time to reply as promised to your post on the 'Total Depravity=Hardening' thread. I tried to post it there, but the thread is closed.
You wrote:-
OK, let’s look at John 12:32-33.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." This He said, signifying by what death He would die
I presume that your position is that our Lord draws every single person to Himself, but clearly that cannot be the case because, alas, not every single person is drawn to Christ. If He had said, “I will try to draw all peoples to Myself,” you might have a point, but of course He didn’t say that. What the text means is that He will draw people of all nations, Jew and Gentile alike to Himself (cf. John 10:16). It is very clear that the Father gave to the Son a people, drawn from every nation and language, and He has redeemed them through the cross. This is evidenced by John 6:39 (cf. also John 17:2, 6). Our Lord has not lost one single person of those that the Father gave Him. Therefore your position is erroneous.
John 12:39-41 does not help you either.
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
Satan has blinded unbelievers and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot believe. All the preaching and all the persuading in the world cannot help them. “No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man” (Mark 3:27). We are all under the domination of Satan, blind and dead in our sins, until Christ, the stronger man comes and rescues us.
Yet it must be understood that men and women are willing captives of Satan. They find the world much more attractive than Christ and will not turn to Him because they will not give up their sinful lifestyles (John 3:19). And everyone of us on this board was once in the same condition (Rom 3:9ff; Titus 3:3-6). People who hear Gospel preaching will sometimes be briefly affected (Mark 4:16-17; John 6:66; Acts 24:25; 26:28), but unless God opens their hearts, the effect will be only temporary.
I suppose that your reference to Acts 28 centres around v27 and the word ‘Grown.’ Your argument is presumably that people’s hearts are not dull by nature, but they grow that way. This interpretation is in direct conflict with a host of texts, including Rom 3:11. ‘There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.’ Therefore there must be another interpretation that will harmonize the texts. When people hear the Gospel, they hear it but they do not understand it (v26) and their hearts grow dull and they reject it. When they do that consistently, God, in His justice, hardens them so that they no longer hear at all (v27).
I wrote:-
And you replied:-
Well, to take the last remarks first, I find quite enough very clear texts to convince me of an irresistible call.
How did Paul come to believe? ‘But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me….’ (Gal 1:15-16).
How did Lydia come to believe. Did she open her own heart to receive the word preached by Paul? Did Paul open her heart to receive the word? No and no. ‘The Lord opened her heart to receive the things spoken by Paul’ (Acts 16:14).
How does anyone come to believe? ‘You must be born again’ (John 3:7). Nowour Lord could have used a number of expressions here: ‘You must start again,’ ‘you must take a new turning,’ ‘make a new beginning,’ but all these are things I can do for myself. The one thing over which I had no control, in which I was totally dependent upon another, was my birth. It was irresistible; there was no option for me to stay in the womb! And as if that was not enough, the word translated ‘again’ (Gk. anothen) could also be translated ‘from above.’ We need a birth that only God can give. ‘Every good and perfect gift is from above (Gk. anothen[/I])……Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.' Whose will? Yours or mine, deciding to be born again? I don’t think so.
The real problem that I have with you is that when the Bible says, ‘dead,’ you think. ‘wounded.’
Dead is dead, not wounded. Blind is not short-sighted; deaf is not hard of hearing and leprosy is not acne. They were all utterly incurable conditions in ancient Israel.
Listen, Lazarus is dead, right? He’s been in the tomb for four days. How shall we bring Lazarus back to life? Well, we can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much fun it will be when he is. We can tell him of all the disadvantages of being dead. We can tell him how much we miss him and are looking forward to him being alive again. We can tell him anything we want for as long as we want as eloquently as we can, but it won’t help. He’s dead, you see, and he can’t hear us.
It’s actually even worse than that, because between you and me, Lazarus is a real stinker (John 11:39). He’s not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sin; he’s in a bad odour with God. He has no right to come back to life. So who will bring Lazarus back to life? Not me, and not you, no matter how wonderful and eloquent your preaching. It is when the Son of God says, “Lazarus, come forth!” that Lazarus will obey the irresistible summons of the Lord Jesus, saying,
Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.
Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.
Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.
Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin’s dark sepulcher.
Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The chains of my captivity. William Tidd Matson
Well, this post has grown exceedingly long, and I’ve run out of time. I’m aware that I haven’t answered your question about hardening. I will try to do that at a later stage, but it probably won’t be this weekend, I’m afraid, because I’m too busy.
Steve
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Not necessarily. My point is that he will send the means by which all men will be called to repent and be saved. The gospel will be sent out to "every creature." (Even Calvinists affirm the universality of the gospel's appeal)
Plus, I'm actually fine with the understanding that he intends to indicate that "both Jews and Gentiles" will be drawn, because that is part of the mystery Paul speaks of later. This mystery is that the Gentiles will be "grafted in." It's not until Paul is called and Peter has his dream that the gospel is sent to the Gentiles thus "grafting them in" and permitting them to enter covenant with the one known up to that point as the God of Israel.
So, you have Israel being hardened/blinded in their rebellion so as to ensure the crucifixion of Christ and the leaving room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the church while Christ is on earth, but after he is "lifted up" he send the Holy Spirit and the gospel to "every creature" through the ministry of the church (his means to draw all men to himself). Understand? I'm not asking if you agree, I'm just wanting you to confirm you understand our view.
Actually, "HE" in this verse is referring to God, not Satan.
If you are talking about the Jews being hardened, I agree. God had sent them a "spirit of stupor" so they couldn't hear and understand the gospel, otherwise they might have seen, understood and believed...as the Gentiles were. (Acts 28:21-28)
Thank you for restating my view so that I know you are understanding. Yes, this is correct, but its not JUST the word "grown" or "become" it is the acknowledgement of what they might have done had they not grown calloused, "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'"
AND it goes on to contrast the Jews who were hardened with the Gentiles who "will listen." (vs. 28) Now, you appear to jump off this text on those texts you feel are in "direct conflict" but you do so without first handling this passage. You can't simply ignore this verse. Its fine to bring in other verses to help provide an explanation for this one, but please don't just ignore it and move on. Thanks
We all agree that on their own, no one understands or seeks after God, but what about when God explains the mystery (gospel) and seeks us first? He send messengers to appeal for us to be reconciled to him (2 Cor 5) Is that work of God insufficient? If so, where does it tell us that?
I need you to explain to my why you think those two passages are not in harmony with each other in the way I interpret them, or in the way you have interpreted them, because I see no contradiction.
And you presume that is the condition of all men from birth, but the fact that they "grew" or "became" like this over time contradicts that interpretation and the fact that Gentiles "will listen" contradicts the idea that all men are in the same predicament as the Jews were at this time.
Even Arminians affirm the divine election of his appointed messengers. In fact, if you look at the Gal passage you will see that this is in reference to Paul attempt to confirm his apostolic authority. If what you believe is true, those who disagreed with Paul (Judiazing believers) could just say, "So what, we too were set apart from birth and effectually called, we all are, so what makes you special?"
The fact that God chose Jonah to send to Nineveh and even used effectual means (a big fish) to convince him to obey, doesn't prove that he individually chose who would or would not accept his divine appeal to be reconciled to God.
And before that I suppose she was a totally depraved reprobate who hated God and didn't want anything to do with Him?
I have to stop there for now, got to go to dinner...
Why Harden Hearts
If, because of the Fall, all men have Total Spiritual Inability (the T in Tulip) why does scripture over and over refer to the hardening of hearts due to the deceitfulness of sin, Heb 3:13.
And the answer is simple, because before their hearts were hardened, they possessed limited but sufficient spiritual ability to respond and be healed.
If, because of the Fall, all men have Total Spiritual Inability (the T in Tulip) why does scripture over and over refer to the hardening of hearts due to the deceitfulness of sin, Heb 3:13.
And the answer is simple, because before their hearts were hardened, they possessed limited but sufficient spiritual ability to respond and be healed.