Romans 1 and reprobation

[quantumfaith]

I think that you have really missed the boat with this comment... Every text of Scripture comes in context. We don't get to simply "concord" a word, then apply one single usage to that word, but neither do we get to "concord" a word and apply all the usages to ever application. That, for every given biblical word, there are multiple usages indicates that there is a contextual usage for each determined by the pericope in which that word is written.

In other words (for Bob...) the surrounding text determines what any given word might mean.

In the case of Paul in Romans, he builds a very careful argument for the universal use of "pas" or in English, "all."

So sorry you don't approve of the accoutrements of the boat, but it floats just fine for me.

 

[Jarthur001]

So what you are saying (and I'm honestly just trying to understand your view here, not argue with you) is that Paul is just talking about what all man WOULD do if not for His grace intervening to stop it? So, men like Abraham who clearly didn't ever rebel to the point of being "given over" are exceptions because of God's grace intervening.

Is that correct?

If so, you need to know that is what I was saying from the beginning. You just believe God interveners effectually and I believe men can resist and rebel freely.

NO!! Do you even read post, or do you have a time following logic? The phrase "given over" is toward all men. There is not a saved state, a lost state, and a given over lost state. ALL unregenerate are GIVEN OVER to SIN!!!! You keep wanting to jump to the gospel and in doing so you damage the gospel. When I began preaching, there are not many Calvinist preachers in my area. For some reason I still had preachers come and ask me how to handle a book of scripture. Two asked about Romans, I told them as I tell you now, preach it as it comes. They, knowing the text, worried about depressing people for 3 months till they got to the gospel. I said...well I hope they go though some depresstion, because that is what Paul is trying to do.

Let me give you another example. The book of ecclesiastes. Many want to spiritualize this book way to much saying...but there is hope for the believer after the preacher has said...life is better if you kill yourself. You miss the point of the book. Ecclesiastes should depress you, because its a picture of life without God. If there is no God, you may as well kill yourself.

Once again, Paul is saying ALL OF MANKIND...is given over to SIN. This is the point of the 1st 3 chapters. How about Job? Job is not even talked about.

Do you not see this??

Really? Do you honestly believe that is an accurate reflection of my points of discussion?

Do you believe Calvinist change the word ALL to fit their needs, of use context to tell them what it means?

Not only do I get it, but I preach the wrath of God regularly. What are we saved from? The WRATH OF GOD.

I would disagree. We are saved from sin. Sin places under the wrath of God. Don't take short cuts.

 

[Jarthur001]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Great Post.

Do you read post, or just agree with anyone that is non-Calvinist?

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you read post, or just agree with anyone that is non-Calvinist?

OH I read posts. Why do you feel the need to be a smart alek? Do you just get upset because others see things differently than you?

 

[Amy.G]

Why do you feel the need to be a smart alek?

That's just James! He can't help himself. It's ordained. :laugh::laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Actually, James did a great job of crushing Skandelon's kumbaya arguements.

 

[BobinKy]

Thanks, guys! The discussion is much easier to follow.

...Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

Thanks, guys! The discussion is much easier to follow.

...Bob

Dont know about you Bob, but I'm CRUSHED.

 

[convicted1]

Dont know about you Bob, but I'm CRUSHED.

So were the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl XII versus the Dallas Cowboys 27-10!! Get it? Crushed? Denver's defense was named the "Orange Crush" because of their orange colored home uniforms. Get it now? Oh brother....but, I digress!!

To steal a line from you, Brother!!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

BTW, did you hear what G.W.B. said the day Obama was sworn in?

He said, "I'm Bushed........oh brother

 

[Skandelon]

NO!! Do you even read post, or do you have a time following logic? The phrase "given over" is toward all men. There is not a saved state, a lost state, and a given over lost state. ALL unregenerate are GIVEN OVER to SIN!!!! You keep wanting to jump to the gospel and in doing so you damage the gospel. When I began preaching, there are not many Calvinist preachers in my area. For some reason I still had preachers come and ask me how to handle a book of scripture. Two asked about Romans, I told them as I tell you now, preach it as it comes. They, knowing the text, worried about depressing people for 3 months till they got to the gospel. I said...well I hope they go though some depresstion, because that is what Paul is trying to do.

Let me give you another example. The book of ecclesiastes. Many want to spiritualize this book way to much saying...but there is hope for the believer after the preacher has said...life is better if you kill yourself. You miss the point of the book. Ecclesiastes should depress you, because its a picture of life without God. If there is no God, you may as well kill yourself.

Once again, Paul is saying ALL OF MANKIND...is given over to SIN. This is the point of the 1st 3 chapters. How about Job? Job is not even talked about.

Do you not see this??

Jarthur, I understand what you are saying, I really do. You are saying that Paul is addressing the condition of all mankind, both Jews and Gentiles...both those who have had the divine revelation (jews) and those who have been left to only creation (Gentiles). I get that. And I agree with it. That is what I've been trying to say. I think we have been talking past each other.

My point was, that even before the gospel was sent there were people (like Abraham) who did come to faith in God. He was a sinner. He wasn't righteous according to the law. He fell short. But he did believe and it was credited to him as righteousness. Likewise, there was Job, Rahab, and Enoch etc as examples, who feared and worshipped God without having ever heard the gospel. They too were all sinners. They all fell short. However, God acknowledges their faith and credits them with righteousness. As Paul says, "In his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith..."

So, while I agree that Paul was teaching that all mankind were sinful, I was merely pointing out that not all had rebelled to the degree of becoming hardened. Now, most Calvinists would argue that the reason they didn't was because of God's electing and effectually calling them otherwise they too would have had the same fate as these reprobates, but you seem to be saying that even the elect of God are being described when Paul says,

"they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Surely the elect, like Abraham, "gave thanks to God" didn't they? These folks NEVER gave thanks, so clearly Paul is not meaning them. He is telling what all mankind, even Abraham, would have become had God not intervened. Surely you agree with this, don't you?

I would disagree. We are saved from sin. Sin places under the wrath of God. Don't take short cuts.

I said we are saved from God's wrath and you disagreed with me? Really?

You can't agree for being so disagreeable Aaron. Sin is something we do. If you lie to someone, the lie doesn't come and get you, it is not a person or a being with any power, it is just something you've done. God is the person who executes judgement and wrath thus it is Him and His wrath we are being saved from...but I'll let you argue with Paul about that:

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" -Paul

Now, who is taking "short cuts?"

 

[Ron Wood]

While we are saved from the wrath of God that is not what believers seek after. I don't desire to be free of the consequences of my sin I want to free from sin. Believers don't come to Christ to receive a release from the wrath of God they come to Christ to rest from all thier work to please God. The motive of the believer isn't to get a free pass from Hell it is to be freed from the power and performance of sin. I rejoice that the wrath of God isn't on me when I know it ought to be but my motive for coming to Christ, at the first and daily, is to be freed from the power of sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

While we are saved from the wrath of God that is not what believers seek after. I don't desire to be free of the consequences of my sin I want to free from sin. Believers don't come to Christ to receive a release from the wrath of God they come to Christ to rest from all thier work to please God. The motive of the believer isn't to get a free pass from Hell it is to be freed from the power and performance of sin. I rejoice that the wrath of God isn't on me when I know it ought to be but my motive for coming to Christ, at the first and daily, is to be freed from the power of sin.

You got it. Good to meet you Ron.

 

[Jarthur001]

OH I read posts. Why do you feel the need to be a smart alek? Do you just get upset because others see things differently than you?

No, I ask because sometimes you give the ol thumbs up to things that make no sense at all. Me being smart is hardly any lower than you saying "That explanation is simple, just like Bob likes it. It is "all" when it is necessary and it is not "all" when it is not convenient."

It seems like you want to be the only one to be a smart alek. Ok...you can have it.

 

[freeatlast]

I got in on the end of a thread talking about reprobation and Romans 1.

The Text..Romans 1
1) In Light of where Paul goes with this later, is this talking about all men?
2) Is reprobating a greater level of a sinner?
3) is it possible to live a life without covetousness?
3) is covetousness debased and part of the reprobate?

1) yes and no. The beginning of the passage is speaking of all men. His wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men. However He does not give all men up. Some he saves

2) yes. There certainly are greater and lessor levels of sinners and sins. John 19:11

3) If you mean before salvation no. If you mean after salvation yes. 2Peter 1:3-8

4) As a way of life yes without a doubt.

 

[quantumfaith]

While we are saved from the wrath of God that is not what believers seek after. I don't desire to be free of the consequences of my sin I want to free from sin. Believers don't come to Christ to receive a release from the wrath of God they come to Christ to rest from all thier work to please God. The motive of the believer isn't to get a free pass from Hell it is to be freed from the power and performance of sin. I rejoice that the wrath of God isn't on me when I know it ought to be but my motive for coming to Christ, at the first and daily, is to be freed from the power of sin.

Ron, are you freed from the power of sin? The motive of one who comes to Christ should be both, a "pass from hell" and the desire to be pleasing to the God we both worship.

 

[freeatlast]

While we are saved from the wrath of God that is not what believers seek after. I don't desire to be free of the consequences of my sin I want to free from sin. Believers don't come to Christ to receive a release from the wrath of God they come to Christ to rest from all thier work to please God. The motive of the believer isn't to get a free pass from Hell it is to be freed from the power and performance of sin. I rejoice that the wrath of God isn't on me when I know it ought to be but my motive for coming to Christ, at the first and daily, is to be freed from the power of sin.

Ron that was not my experience. I wanted to be free from the present consequences of my sin as well as the future consequences. I came because I feared hell, not because I hated sin or loved God. I loved sin even while turning to God, but I did not love what it brought me. I did not come because I wanted to be free from sin itself, just its wages here and later. After salvation I now want to be free from my sin, but not before.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur, I understand what you are saying, I really do. You are saying that Paul is addressing the condition of all mankind, both Jews and Gentiles...both those who have had the divine revelation (jews) and those who have been left to only creation (Gentiles). I get that. And I agree with it. That is what I've been trying to say. I think we have been talking past each other.

No you have not. You want to make some sins less than others, and some sinners greater than others. While man may see greater sinners, God sees only sinners. You break one law, you are guilty of all laws..(James)

My point was, that even before the gospel was sent there were people (like Abraham) who did come to faith in God.

God came to Abraham because Abraham was chosen by God. One of my girls saw this on her own at the age of 5. She came and asked, "why did God choose Abraham?"

It is impossible to understand Abraham's faith without realizing that there was nothing in Abraham that commended him to God. God does not look down from heaven to find a person who has a bit of divine righteousness or a bit of faith and then say, "Oh, isn't it wonderful! I've found somebody with a bit of faith. I think I'll save him." When God looks down from heaven He sees that all men are without faith, and He passes a universal judgment: "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one". That included Abraham.


This truth is reinforced by another. Abraham came from a family of idol worshipers, and was undoubtedly an idol worshiper himself. This truth is clearly stated in at least three places in the Bible.


In the last chapter of the Book of Joshua, the aging leader delivers a final spiritual charge to the people of Israel. Joshua begins by reminding them of their pagan past.
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the river [the River Euphrates] of old, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor; and they served other gods. And I took your father, Abraham, from the other side of the river, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac...Now, therefore, fear the Lord, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the river, and in Egypt (Joshua 24:2, 3, 14).





The passage is a black-and-white statement of the fact that Abraham was chosen by God from the midst of a pagan ancestry and that he and Terah had once worshiped false gods.

So, while I agree that Paul was teaching that all mankind were sinful, I was merely pointing out that not all had rebelled to the degree of becoming hardened.

No you are wrong. Do you understand what hardening means? In Heb's 3, believers are told to watch not to harden their hearts. When we rebell, we harden.

Now, most Calvinists would argue that the reason they didn't was because of God's electing and effectually calling them otherwise they too would have had the same fate as these reprobates, but you seem to be saying that even the elect of God are being described when

See, you do not get it. I have said it over and over and still you do not get the reformed view. All of mankind are reprobates. This is why I asked do you covet. Or...are you boastful. This is list in the list Paul says are signs of reprobates.

Surely the elect, like Abraham, "gave thanks to God" didn't they? These folks NEVER gave thanks, so clearly Paul is not meaning them.

:BangHead:

He is telling what all mankind, even Abraham, would have become had God not intervened. Surely you agree with this, don't you?

NO!! Abraham is not even talked about.

I said we are saved from God's wrath and you disagreed with me? Really?

Well, I didn't say I disagreed just for the fun of it. We are saved from sin, the sin that places under Gods wrath. If you preach saved from Gods wrath, you are preaching a ticket out of hell, where you can remain in sin.

 

[freeatlast]

No you have not. You want to make some sins less than others, and some sinners greater than others. While man may see greater sinners, God sees only sinners. You break one law, you are guilty of all laws..(James)

I don't believe that James is saying that in light of what the Lord said. Also if you break one law you ARE NOT guilty of breaking all the laws. The scripture doesn't say that. A theif is not guilty murderer. A liar is not guilty of homosexuality. You miss-understand what James is saying. James is saying that the law is only complete when kept completely. If you fail in only one area you are guilty of breking the law. It is like a window. No one ever broke part of of window even though there are parts unbroken. A window is only functioning as a window when it is unbroken. The same with the law. There are greater and lessor sinners in the eyes of God.
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Also Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

While it is true that all sinners will go to hell and all the saved will go to heaven God is not blind to the severity of certain sins any more then He is blind to the greater righteousness of some. While there is no such thing as a place in hell that is tolerable some will suffer greater in hell then others because of how they lived. The same with heaven. While there is no suffering in heaven some will experience greater joys then others because of their lives.

 

[Robert Snow]

God came to Abraham because Abraham was chosen by God. One of my girls saw this on her own at the age of 5. She came and asked, "why did God choose Abraham?"

I think you miss the mark here:

Romans 4:1-5 (NKJV)

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness...

Abraham chose to believe what God reveled to him. We choose to believe God when the Holy Spirit revels the Gospel to us, or we choose not to believe and continue on in wrath.

Thanks be to God He, in His sovereignty has chosen to save those who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! raying:

 

[quantumfaith]

I think you miss the mark here:

Romans 4:1-5 (NKJV)
Abraham chose to believe what God reveled to him. We choose to believe God when the Holy Spirit revels the Gospel to us, or we choose not to believe and continue on in wrath.

Thanks be to God He, in His sovereignty has chosen to save those who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! raying:

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: