A ? 4 Calvinists (II)

[Ron Wood]

Why don't you just pray for me? Oh wait. That doesn't work because God won't go against my will. *rolls eyes*

What! Didn't you know that we can twist God's arm into doing what we want Him to do? Isn't that what prayer is?:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Alright EWF, FRIEND>>>> dont make me go Ninjee on you now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j1-xQA_ufE

Dave I know your a teacher, but I didnt know your were into martial arts...LMBO! :thumbs::laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you all know that God just laughs at you dont you! Bunch of knuckleheads.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[saturneptune]

Why don't you just pray for me? Oh wait. That doesn't work because God won't go against my will. *rolls eyes*

Now to be fair, the Lord has to appreciate Arminians, as He must get tired of having to regenerate people all day long.

 

[saturneptune]

What! Didn't you know that we can twist God's arm into doing what we want Him to do? Isn't that what prayer is?:laugh: :laugh:

As you know, we who believe in God's sovereignty always take verses out of context. For example, when the Lord said, "I chose you, you did not choose Me," He was not talking about a call to salvation or regeneration, if you study the Greek and Hebrew carefully, they were picking teams to see who could catch the most fish.

 

[Robert Snow]

I would just tell him God's judgment of his position. It's another gospel, and it carries a curse.

Again we see the Calvinist claim that the non-cal, like Skandelon is believing another Gospel, which is no Gospel at all, thereby calling into question another brother's salvation.

Now, If I posted that Calvinism is a false Gospel, I would be edited and probably banned.

Don't tell me that this board doesn't have one set of rules for the Calvinists and another for the non-cal!

Well, it's time to get ready for church. I don't know why I bother to go. After all, according to Aaron, I am hearing another Gospel and since my church doesn't preach Calvinism (thank God) I will be wasting my time! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As you know, we who believe in God's sovereignty always take verses out of context. For example, when the Lord said, "I chose you, you did not choose Me," He was not talking about a call to salvation or regeneration, if you study the Greek and Hebrew carefully, they were picking teams to see who could catch the most fish.

All I really know Saturn is what I've experienced first hand. I would never have chosen the Lord....absolutely never. Did I go to church, ah yes....mostly cause I was raising a family & I thought it the right thing to do. Did I like it or want it....ah heck NO! I sinned & enjoyed it & could not understand why nutty people couldn't understand sin. To me, sin was just reality. I had to be brought kicking & screaming to the Lord. Even then I kept swinging & kicking at it. LOL. So dont tell me that Im going to do some act of contrition, walk down any isle & give myself to any religious authority. I am not selling myself away from sin cause I loved it. I still smile at it in thinking about it. What a wonderful Sin Career I had & I enjoyed every blasted minute of it.

Now I cant do the things I did in my past....I try & I cant. It's killing my career & making me poor because I cant accumulate ill gotten gains the way I used to. Makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs....what have you done to me. Seriously dude....what the H! :laugh:

Only thing I can figure out is that for some reason He wants me.....for what I have no idea. So for me DoG makes perfect sense. Even that is crazy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, it's time to get ready for church. I don't know why I bother to go. After all, according to Aaron, I am hearing another Gospel and since my church doesn't preach Calvinism (thank God) I will be wasting my time! :laugh:

And DoG & Election is exactly how my church operates (Thank God).

Ive told you this a long time ago.....Doctrine Divides. Good & I'm really all for it as is Aaron & I guess you as well! Also you go to your church & I will go to mine... My Uncle & his family will go to his Catholic Church & the next door neighbor will go to his United Methodist Church & folks will be going to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church down the block... I'm not standing in their way or criticizing them. Thank God this country stands for Freedom of Religion.

 

[saturneptune]

All I really know Saturn is what I've experienced first hand. I would never have chosen the Lord....absolutely never. Did I go to church, ah yes....mostly cause I was raising a family & I thought it the right thing to do. Did I like it or want it....ah heck NO! I sinned & enjoyed it & could not understand why nutty people couldn't understand sin. To me, sin was just reality. I had to be brought kicking & screaming to the Lord. Even then I kept swinging & kicking at it. LOL. So dont tell me that Im going to do some act of contrition, walk down any isle & give myself to any religious authority. I am not selling myself away from sin cause I loved it. I still smile at it in thinking about it. What a wonderful Sin Career I had & I enjoyed every blasted minute of it.

Now I cant do the things I did in my past....I try & I cant. It's killing my career & making me poor because I cant accumulate ill gotten gains the way I used to. Makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs....what have you done to me. Seriously dude....what the H! :laugh:

Only thing I can figure out is that for some reason He wants me.....for what I have no idea. So for me DoG makes perfect sense. Even that is crazy.

Of course my quote was sarcasim. Without a doubt, I can relate to your experience. As a Presbyterian (which is ironic, because there almost all believe in some form of Calvinism), my salvation experience was going to something called communicant's class and then, at the time the elders decided (another argument for congregational rule), we went up before the church, answered some questions, and then were declared members of the church. That was probably about 1964. Fast forward to November 1994. I was married (still am), with two kids, a career, and active in this Baptist church. We were at a revival at our church, and this evangelist kept talking about faith in Christ, grace, confession and repentance. I knew instantly something was wrong, in fact, it made me quite angry at the speaker. I remember he played "Amazing Grace" on a saw, and all I could think was how ridiculous is that. The anger built in me, and all night I tossed and turned. The next night I finally admitted to myself what was wrong, that I was lost, and only the grace of God could save me. At the time, I did not realize what a gift it was from God that He even allowed me to be angry at the speaker. The Lord came to me, I did not come to Him. Yes, the old nature is still there, but there is a new nature called the Holy Spirit, and He has taken me from spiritual death to life.

I suppose sometime after that, we have a deacon in our church named Tom Butler (he is on this board), started talking to me about God's sovereignty. I read several books on the matter, and am convinced that God does the saving, the choosing, giving the ability to have faith, all in the accomplishment of His purposes. Without Him, I would be nothing. I do not agree with those who do not believe in missions or evangelism, as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Anyway, that is basically what happened to me.

As I have said before, I wish we could come up with a different name than Calvinism. Maybe the Doctrine of God's Sovereignty or something like that. If we are going to choose a dead theologean to name a doctrine after, no doubt we could find one that had beliefs about baptism like ours and did not have people executed for disagreeing with them about Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

Again we see the Calvinist claim that the non-cal, like Skandelon is believing another Gospel, which is no Gospel at all, thereby calling into question another brother's salvation.

No kidding. I got "ripped" apart by Rippon for a comment I made about 2 gospels. He seems to be silent when it's the Calvinist making the comment.

 

[Robert Snow]

And DoG & Election is exactly how my church operates (Thank God).

Ive told you this a long time ago.....Doctrine Divides.

Yes, doctrine divides. It often divides the real from the false.

BTW, as far as choosing God is concerned, if a person doesn't chose to accept the salvation found in Christ, they are not part of God's family. They are deceived and headed for judgment.

Acts 2:37-41 (NKJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to ALL who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Note, those who GLADLY received his word were the one's God called. God calls all who will receive the Gospel. The promise is to "ALL" who are afar off.

 

[Skandelon]

Why don't you just pray for me? Oh wait. That doesn't work because God won't go against my will. *rolls eyes*

That is an inaccurate depiction of what we believe. We could argue that you don't need to pray because it's not going to change anything any way because God has already determined everything, but you all obviously reject that conclusion. Likewise, we reject this one. God clearly uses means to help provoke man's will to change (signs and wonders, envy, circumstances etc). There is no reason we wouldn't want to pray for God to help provoke man's will so that they might be saved. (Rom 11:14)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, doctrine divides. It often divides the real from the false.

BTW, as far as choosing God is concerned, if a person doesn't chose to accept the salvation found in Christ, they are not part of God's family. They are deceived and headed for judgment.

Acts 2:37-41 (NKJV)


Note, those who GLADLY received his word were the one's God called. God calls all who will receive the Gospel. The promise is to "ALL" who are afar off.

I agree totally.:thumbs: Thank God for He changed my heart! Note, God called & I GLADLY received. I was even dunked! Imagine that & me being a Presbyterian at the time.

 

[Skandelon]

What! Didn't you know that we can twist God's arm into doing what we want Him to do? Isn't that what prayer is?:laugh: :laugh:

Here are some clear revelations given to us in scripture about prayer:

9 "So I say to you, keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

Persistence (what you might call "arm twisting) apparently pays off.

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The intense prayer of the righteous is very powerful.

There is a power, or result, that comes through prayer. Here is an example of the prayer of a righteous man being used to impact others:

9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Now, you can qualify these verses however you want, but the scripture itself doesn't provide such qualifications within the context, so I see no harm in taking them at their face value. Clearly the authors of these texts didn't have a problem with people walking away understanding that prayer is powerful and can be used to remove the judgement of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Of course my quote was sarcasim. Without a doubt, I can relate to your experience. As a Presbyterian (which is ironic, because there almost all believe in some form of Calvinism), my salvation experience was going to something called communicant's class and then, at the time the elders decided (another argument for congregational rule), we went up before the church, answered some questions, and then were declared members of the church. That was probably about 1964. Fast forward to November 1994. I was married (still am), with two kids, a career, and active in this Baptist church. We were at a revival at our church, and this evangelist kept talking about faith in Christ, grace, confession and repentance. I knew instantly something was wrong, in fact, it made me quite angry at the speaker. I remember he played "Amazing Grace" on a saw, and all I could think was how ridiculous is that. The anger built in me, and all night I tossed and turned. The next night I finally admitted to myself what was wrong, that I was lost, and only the grace of God could save me. At the time, I did not realize what a gift it was from God that He even allowed me to be angry at the speaker. The Lord came to me, I did not come to Him. Yes, the old nature is still there, but there is a new nature called the Holy Spirit, and He has taken me from spiritual death to life.

I suppose sometime after that, we have a deacon in our church named Tom Butler (he is on this board), started talking to me about God's sovereignty. I read several books on the matter, and am convinced that God does the saving, the choosing, giving the ability to have faith, all in the accomplishment of His purposes. Without Him, I would be nothing. I do not agree with those who do not believe in missions or evangelism, as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Anyway, that is basically what happened to me.

As I have said before, I wish we could come up with a different name than Calvinism. Maybe the Doctrine of God's Sovereignty or something like that. If we are going to choose a dead theologean to name a doctrine after, no doubt we could find one that had beliefs about baptism like ours and did not have people executed for disagreeing with them about Scripture.

Thats a good testimony.... Here is my answer to your question of calvinism.

Taken from Martyn Lloyd-Jones

My argument is, that cold, sad, mournful, depressing Calvinism is not Calvinism at all. It is a caricature; something has gone wrong somewhere. It is mere intellectualism and philosophy. Calvinism leads to feeling, to passion, to warmth, to praise, to thanksgiving. Look at Paul, the greatest of them all. We should not talk about 'Calvinism'; it is Paul's teaching. He tells us that he wept. He preached with tears. Do you? When did we last weep over these matters? When did we last shed tears? When have we shown the feeling and the passion that he shows? Paul could not control himself, he got carried away. Look at his mighty climaxes; look at the way in which he rises to the heavens and is 'lost in wonder, tore, and praise'. Of course, the pedantic scholars criticize him for his anacolutha. He starts a sentence and never finishes it. He starts saving a thing and then gets carried off, and forgets to come back to it. Thank God! It is the truth which he saw that led to these grand climaxes of his; and it is bound to do so. If we understand the things we claim to believe we are bound to end in the same way. 'Who shall separate us from the love of God?' And the answer is, 'I am persuaded'- and in the language of the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists it is much better and stronger- 'I am certain'. It is sure, it is certain, 'that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord'. Or listen to him again at the end of Romans 11, 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.' How often have you had that 'O' in your preaching - you Calvinists ? Calvinism leads to this 'O'! - this feeling, this passion. You are moved to the depths of your being, and you are filled with joy, and wonder, and amazement. 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!' -and so on. Or take the same thing at the end of Ephesians 3. These are men dominated by a sense of the glory of God, and who are concerned about His praise.

Thus I consider us Christians who are students of Paul. We are Pauline in Theology. Im also Welsh. LOL

PS: Tom's a good (Christian) Man. I like the guy.

 

[Rippon]

No kidding. I got "ripped" apart by Rippon for a comment I made about 2 gospels. He seems to be silent when it's the Calvinist making the comment.

What a short memory you have. On 2/04/11 after Aaron had said some things that were out of place I said on the thread:I have a sincere question about Calvinism :

Cut that out Aaron. It's as wrong for you to to say from your side as it is wrong for Amy to say it on her side." (post #83)

You even replied to that in the very next post. So it's puzzling why you would say that I remain silent when a Calvinist makes another Gospel-type statement. Be honest.

 

[Aaron]

As I have said before, I wish we could come up with a different name than Calvinism. Maybe the Doctrine of God's Sovereignty or something like that. If we are going to choose a dead theologean to name a doctrine after, no doubt we could find one that had beliefs about baptism like ours and did not have people executed for disagreeing with them about Scripture.

Surprised that you would stoop to this.

But, understanding the times and the true character of Servetus and the implications of his actions, and having studied what really happened, I stand with Calvin.

 

[Rippon]

...for a comment I made about 2 gospels.

You had said:

"The gospel says that Christ died for all men.
Calvinism says that Christ died for some men.
Two different gospels."

Either you still maintain that Calvinists hold to a different -- i.e. another gospel --and hence under the curse of Galatians 1:8,9 -- or you have changed your mind. Which is it?

 

[Robert Snow]

Surprised that you would stoop to this.

But, understanding the times and the true character of Servetus and the implications of his actions, and having studied what really happened, I stand with Calvin.

You stand with a man who condoned the death of another person because he didn't believe like others thought he should? You stand with a murderer?

 

[Rippon]

As I have said before, I wish we could come up with a different name than Calvinism. Maybe the Doctrine of God's Sovereignty or something like that. If we are going to choose a dead theologean [sic]to name a doctrine after, no doubt we could find one that had beliefs about baptism like ours ...

Calvinism is a large tent. Baptists of a Calvinistic mindset constitute a minority among Calvinists internationally. I am closer in most of my beliefs to conservative Presbyterians than that of many Baptists. I still hold to traditional Baptist distinctives --but that's not the big picture.

To call what I believe Calvinism, will do just fine as it has been the title used for several centuries now.