Revelation 22

[BobRyan]

Chowmah - sorry about showing up late to this one.

Revelation 22 has many truths that are ignored by the many

GEN.3 [22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In the beginning of the good book scripture says, we must take of the tree of life and live forever

PROVERBS 13 [12] Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is A TREE OF LIFE.[13]Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but HE THAT FEARETH THE COMMANDMENT SHALL BE REWARDED.[14] The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

In the middle of the book scripture speaks of the tree of life and is reserved for those who keep the commandments and the law.

REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

In the end of the book (new testament) scripture says you may take hold of the tree of life and enter into the city (1000yr. period of rest) only if you keep the commandments. To the "many" who claim that Gods 10 commandments have been nailed to the cross i ask...what do you do with the new covenant scriptures found in the last book of your bible?

1. Under the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the tablets of the human heart instead of merely external on tablets of stone.

2. Thus John says the saints of God are those who "keep His commandments" -- Rev 14:12

3. And Paul says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

It is an irrefutable to point to Rev 22 where we find that same teaching - and to point out that this teaching is found all through Revelation and in 1John 2 and in John 14 and 15 (in fact it is even in John 14:15) --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Chowmah - sorry about showing up late to this one.



1. Under the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the tablets of the human heart instead of merely external on tablets of stone.

True! However, this writing on the heart is not for the purpose to obtain justification but occurred with justification. Also it is not "unto obtaining heaven" but "unto good works" (Eph. 2:10).

2. Thus John says the saints of God are those who "keep His commandments" -- Rev 14:12

The new birth gives inward disposition to delight in the law of God and therefore it is the disposition of true born again believers to keep the commandments of God. However, this is not the cause for obtaining eternal life or entrance into the new heaven and earth as the cause is faith in the completed obedience of Christ (Jn. 3:16, 36;5:24; etc.). It is the consequence. The fact that there are "saved" OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24) demands that entrance into the New Jerusalem based upon faithfulness demands that works do not obtain entrance into the eternal state but only obtain special privilege and position in the eternal state.
The "leaves" of the tree of life cover the shame of disobedience to the "saved" OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem UPON the new earth.

3. And Paul says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Of course it "matters." I would never say it does not matter! However, this text does not define why it matters or for what it matters! Keeping the commandments matters for a number of reasons - (1) Gives visible distinction between the ungodly and the professed believer; (2) obtains present blessings; (3) obtains future reward, privileges and position but NEVER OBTAINS ENTRANCE into heaven or justification before God.

The difference is between cause and effect and between entrance into heaven and entrance into the New Jerusalem; present blessings and future rewards; present visible distinction from the lost and future distinction from the unfaithful saved (Rev. 21:24).

 

[Chowmah]

Chowmah - sorry about showing up late to this one.
in Christ,
Bob

Hi Bob
I truly understand. Theres only so many hours in a day. Have a good one Bob.

 

[Darrell C]

Revelation 22 has many truths that are ignored by the many

How true that is:

Revelation 22

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Now understand, I do not post these to either accuse or excuse, but simply to ask...what are the words of the prophecy of this book?

While the keeping of commandments is danced around, as though the attempt to teach that to be saved one must keep the commandments is not being done, I will merely point out a few things that stand out in the OP.

But first, here (and hear) are a few verses from this book:

Revelation 7:14 (King James Version)

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Revelation 12:11 (King James Version)

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I would ask at this point, how well did the law, and the keeping of the commandments, do for anyone before the Cross of Christ?

Now here, in these verses, we do not see any mention of keeping the commandments, does that mean that for the time-being we can ignore them? Meaning, can we overlook the role that the law played in the history of the people of God?

Why would we also overlook the fact that by the law no flesh shall be justified when we come to Revelation 22?

That is what is being done.


Those who will be part of the eternal state of redemption will be there upon one basis only: the shed blood of Christ.

GEN.3 [22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now I would like for you to examine again what it is you next say:

In the beginning of the good book scripture says, we must take of the tree of life and live forever

Can you see the problem there? It does not say that "we must take of the tree of life and live forever" in any way shape or form. In fact, God's intention is for man not to eat of the tree of life in his fallen state.

Jesus did not say that anyone who eats of the tree will have eternal life...but those who eat His body and drink His blood.

In simpler terms, those who have faith in His death, which is what He speaks of when speaking of His body and blood.

Will you admit that this is inserting into the text that which is not there? I do not say that because I seek to score points over you, but because my desire for you is that you see it for yourself.

PROVERBS 13 [12] Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is A TREE OF LIFE.[13]Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but HE THAT FEARETH THE COMMANDMENT SHALL BE REWARDED.[14] The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

This verse speaks about the tree of life?

But rather, desire...is a tree of life. As to what exactly desire that cometh is referring to, seeing that it is contrasted with hope deferred, my guess is that it refers to a change in the person's outlook, meaning, they are no longer hopeless (or rejecting hope).

Also, notice that in v.13 those that fear the commandment shall be rewarded, which can be seen in Christ saying, "My reward is with me."

Further, to see that the use of the phrase "a tree of life" is illustrative in v.12, notice in v.14 that the "law of the wise," that is, not the law of God, but God's law applied in the life of the wise, is called a fountain of life.

See here for the other three uses of this particular phrase.

Here is my favorite:


Psalm 36:9 (King James Version)

9For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.


God is the only source of eternal life.


Revelation 22

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Who is it that is invited by the Spirit and the bride?

In the middle of the book scripture speaks of the tree of life and is reserved for those who keep the commandments and the law.

Here is another passage that speaks of a tree of life, and it is wisdom that is spoken of:

Proverbs 3:18 (King James Version)

18She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.


See here for context.

REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I thought you did a great job with this part of the post...just kidding, really.

We can retain humor while debating, right?

In the end of the book (new testament) scripture says you may take hold of the tree of life and enter into the city (1000yr. period of rest) only if you keep the commandments.

Revelation 22

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

First, I would like for you, if you would, show me how you come to the conclusion that this refers to the Millennial Kingdom rather than the eternal state, that would be of interest to me. For one thing, in the Millennial Kingdom, I think we can assume that the light of the sun will in fact shine on the kingdom, and that night will still be actively recurring.

Secondly, I would just point out that regardless of whether one believes that the tree and entrance to the city are part of the rewards of the righteous, withheld from those who, though saved, were nominal...the verse can be viewed as a statement of fact, rather than conditional.

Such as, The blessed do His commandments that they might increase their reward (rather than enter into His presence as a sluggard).

To the "many" who claim that Gods 10 commandments have been nailed to the cross i ask...

If you are referring to this:

Colossians 2:14 (King James Version)

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


...this speaks of the penalty that the law imposed.

And since you are limiting the focus on the ten commandments, which fall within the first covenant...

Hebrews 8

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Simple facts: the first covenant was not faultless, a second was needed. But was it the covenant that was faulty?



8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


It was not the covenant, nor the law, nor the ten commandments...it was the inability of the people to keep the covenant.


9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


They did not continue in it.


13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

Old is:

3822. palaioo pal-ah-yo'-o from 3820; to make (passively, become) worn out, or declare obsolete:--decay, make (wax) old.


The writer himself defines his meaning..."that which decayeth and waxeth old."

what do you do with the new covenant scriptures found in the last book of your bible?

Same thing we do with the whole counsel of God...seek out understanding.

God bless.

 

[Chowmah]

First, I would like for you, if you would, show me how you come to the conclusion that this refers to the Millennial Kingdom rather than the eternal state, that would be of interest to me.

REV. 22 [14] Blessed are THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

REV. 3 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [11] Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. [12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Cause Rev.3 tells me so

 

[Chowmah]

Hey Darrel C

Heres a few scriptures about the city. About the crown. And grace

REV. 3 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [11] Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. [12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

PROVERBS 4 [1] Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. [2] For I give you good doctrine, FORSAKE YE NOT MY LAW. [3] For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. [4] He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, AND LIVE. [5] Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. [6] Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. [7] Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. [8] Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. [9] She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: A CROWN OF GLORY shall she deliver to thee.

PSALM 89 [27] Also I will make him MY FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth. [28] My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. [29] His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. [30] IF HIS CHILDREN FORSAKE MY LAW, and walk not in my judgments; [31] If they break my statutes, AND KEEP NOT MY COMMANDMENTS; [32] Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. [33] Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. [34] My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. [38] But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. [39] Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: THOU HAST PROFANED HIS CROWN BY CASTING IT TO THE GROUND.

2 Tim. 2 [1] Thou therefore, my son, BE STRONG IN THE GRACE THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS. [2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. [3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. [5] And if a man also strive for masteries, YET IS HE NOT CROWNED, EXCEPT HE STRIVE LAWFULLY.

 

[Chowmah]

Hey Darrell C

You bring up Hebrews 8

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Wax old. Ready to vanish. Whats that tell ya? Im waxing old myself. Am i still here?

Ready to vanish? Has it already vanished or is it ready to vanish

EZEKIEL 36 [24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and GATHER YOU OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU INTO YOUR OWN LAND. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that i gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

Its after the gathering (in the twinkle of an eye) that the laws will actually be written on our heart. We now are to try and live as if they were written on the fleshly tables of our heart but......look around ya.

By the way, when this prophecy does come to the full, everyone shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest

 

[Chowmah]

As for Col.2{16} a whole thread about it has been discussed. Just look at the scriptures posted there. Scripture will interpret scripture

 

[Darrell C]

REV. 22 [14] Blessed are THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

REV. 3 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [11] Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. [12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Cause Rev.3 tells me so

Revelation 3? So New Jerusalem comes down from heaven at the end of the tribulation?

 

[Darrell C]

Hey Darrel C

Heres a few scriptures about the city. About the crown. And grace

REV. 3 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [11] Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. [12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

PROVERBS 4 [1] Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. [2] For I give you good doctrine, FORSAKE YE NOT MY LAW. [3] For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. [4] He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, AND LIVE. [5] Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. [6] Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. [7] Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. [8] Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. [9] She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: A CROWN OF GLORY shall she deliver to thee.

PSALM 89 [27] Also I will make him MY FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth. [28] My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. [29] His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. [30] IF HIS CHILDREN FORSAKE MY LAW, and walk not in my judgments; [31] If they break my statutes, AND KEEP NOT MY COMMANDMENTS; [32] Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. [33] Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. [34] My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. [38] But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. [39] Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: THOU HAST PROFANED HIS CROWN BY CASTING IT TO THE GROUND.

2 Tim. 2 [1] Thou therefore, my son, BE STRONG IN THE GRACE THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS. [2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. [3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. [5] And if a man also strive for masteries, YET IS HE NOT CROWNED, EXCEPT HE STRIVE LAWFULLY.

Apparently there is no wish to discuss the points brought up in the post addressing the OP, but I would point out that New Jerusalem is the question at hand.

I would suggest that not only is New Jerusalem not in the Millennial Kingdom, but that when New Jerusalem does come down, it will not sit on the parcel of land that will be in existence during the Millennial Kingdom. I know some dispute that the New Heavens and Earth will be a literal New Heaven and Earth, that is just the view I currently hold.

 

[Darrell C]

Hey Darrell C

You bring up Hebrews 8

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Wax old. Ready to vanish. Whats that tell ya? Im waxing old myself. Am i still here?

Ready to vanish? Has it already vanished or is it ready to vanish

EZEKIEL 36 [24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and GATHER YOU OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU INTO YOUR OWN LAND. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that i gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

Its after the gathering (in the twinkle of an eye) that the laws will actually be written on our heart. We now are to try and live as if they were written on the fleshly tables of our heart but......look around ya.

By the way, when this prophecy does come to the full, everyone shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest

It is sad to think that the Law of God is not written on the heart, but that we are still awaiting the time when we will no longer have to read it off of tablets of stone, so to speak. We are to try to live according to God's laws? That is a new approach, to teach that one must keep the law and then say that we can only try.

What is it that I am to see when I look around? Everyone following the law of God?

In the fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant to Israel, they will have a knowledge of God. For Israel, this has not happened yet.

For us...it has. Which is why we never...never, debate the existence of God. We both know that there is a God in Heaven, and that we are to draw near to Him.

In the Millennial Kingdom, not, the eternal state, The promised Governor will be here, on this earth. He will rule with a rod of iron, right? Those who do not comply with the commandment of God will suffer the consequences. I do not wish to imply that I have full understanding of how things will be in the Millennial Kingdom, but, I can say, it will be at that time in which National Israel will have their promised Covenant, Messiah, King, and Kingdom.

Does that preclude that we do not come under the New Covenant?

Hardly.

Wax old. Ready to vanish. Whats that tell ya? Im waxing old myself. Am i still here?

Ready to vanish? Has it already vanished or is it ready to vanish

Well, you tell me: are we waiting for this to be fulfilled?


1 Corinthians 11:23-25 (King James Version)

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


Was Paul waiting to be a minister of the New Covenant?

But for Israel, the Hebrews specifically that this was written to, this is yet future, meaning, National Israel, not the Hebrews addreessed who had believed to the saving of the soul.

Just do me a favor, look at Hebrews 9, and maybe we can get a good discussion going about the New Covenant, and whether the old is obsolete or not.

 

[Darrell C]

As for Col.2{16} a whole thread about it has been discussed. Just look at the scriptures posted there. Scripture will interpret scripture

I saw it. I don't know if you noticed or not, but I was taken to be a sabbatarian!

Hilarious.

I agree, scripture will interpret scripture, yet, I thought I had done a pretty good job in looking at the post I quoted.

Do you still insist upon the teaching of the tree of life there?

Was the entirety of my comments ridiculous, that you deigned not to respond?

Do you stand behind the teaching you give in the post?

Scripture will interpret scripture, but, scripture must also include all relevant teaching. I believe as firmly as you do that we are to live holy, and that we will keep the law of God in our lives, though it will not be immediate nor ever perfect.

What I see as the crucial factor to be discussed, though, is whether law-keeping or the omission of it determines the salvation of man.

I think that adding the law to the Cross is putting new wine into old bottles, plain and simple.

I do not hold to a license to sin theology, and believe we are judged for sin in our lives, even to the point of death at times, but returning to Judaism is expressly taught against in scripture, so I am amazed when it is taught.

One last thing. Could you explain why you would quote Ezekial 36? Here we see a good picture of what takes place at salvation, and just wondering (since there was no commentary), what purpose you had for it?

Gotta go, hope we can talk through this.

 

[Chowmah]

Hi Darrell C
Yeah, we can talk through this. Just to let you know where i stand. You are "saved" to the Kingdom. The 1000yr period of rest. Only way to get there is the law (10 commandments) AND the testimony (Jesus). At the great white thone the rest will be judged by that portion of the 10 commandments that deals with your dealings with man.

 

[Chowmah]

Well, you tell me: are we waiting for this to be fulfilled?


1 Corinthians 11:23-25 (King James Version)

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


Was Paul waiting to be a minister of the New Covenant?

But for Israel, the Hebrews specifically that this was written to, this is yet future, meaning, National Israel, not the Hebrews addreessed who had believed to the saving of the soul.

Just do me a favor, look at Hebrews 9, and maybe we can get a good discussion going about the New Covenant, and whether the old is obsolete or not.

Hebrews 9 is speaking of the blood covenant which was written in the law just as 1 Cor.11 is speaking of the fulfilment of that covenant. Niether is speaking of the 10 commandments

 

[Chowmah]

So what have we learned from the last chapter of the last book of the new covenant

GEN.3 [22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In the beginning of the good book scripture says, we must take of the tree of life and live forever

PROVERBS 13 [12] Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is A TREE OF LIFE.[13]Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but HE THAT FEARETH THE COMMANDMENT SHALL BE REWARDED.[14] The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

In the middle of the book scripture speaks of the tree of life and is reserved for those who keep the commandments and the law.

REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

In the end of the book (new testament) scripture says you may take hold of the tree of life and enter into the city (1000yr. period of rest) only if you keep the commandments.

 

[Chowmah]

REV. 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. [14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In this new covenant scripture we find that we are to be keeping the commandments. The"many" will make the claim its not the ten commandments which are being mentioned here due to what theyve been falsley taught about Pauls writings. But lets see what the Alpha and the Omega {the First and the Last} has been saying all along.

ISAIAH 44 [6] Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and beside me there is no God. [7] And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [9] THEY THAT MAKE A GRAVEN IMAGE ARE ALL OF THEM VANITY; and their delectable things SHALL NOT PROFIT; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.

The First and the Last really hates those graven images. Commandment number two.
NO PROFIT THERE

ISAIAH 48 [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I AM THE FIRST, I ALSO AM THE LAST. [13] Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. [14] All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. [15] I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. [16] Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. [17] Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. [18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

In the old testament the First and the Last tells us to keep the 10 commandments.
THERE IS PROFIT THERE

JEREMIAH 16 [14] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [15] But, THE LORD LIVETH, THAT BROUGHT UP THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FROM THE LAND OF THE NORTH, AND FROM ALL THE LANDS WHITHER HE HAD DRIVEN THEM: AND I WILL BRING THEM AGAIN INTO THEIR LAND THAT I GAVE UNTO THEIR FATHERS. [16] Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. [17] For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes. [18] And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things. [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, VANITY, AND THINGS WHEREIN THERE IS NO PROFIT. [20] Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? [21] Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The Lord.

The above scripture is for the LATTER DAYS, when Gods people are gathered together and brought to the land promised to their fore fathers. The 1000 year period of rest spoken of in Revelations. You go to any sunday denomination and you will find graven images in all their churches and many hanging about their necks. They will come up with (rationalize) many reasons as to why its OK to have them but....
NO PROFIT THERE

 

[Chowmah]

REV.22 [14] Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES into the city.

MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at THE STRAIT GATE: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

The scriptures are clear. Keep Gods 10 commandments if you wish to enter the city. So why do only a few enter the city. The 1000yr period of rest. The 4th commandment maybe? Can anyone show me in the new testament where God changed His sabbath day? Nope

JER.17 [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

JER.17 [13] O LORD, THE HOPE OF ISRAEL, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, THE FOUNTAIN OF LIVING WATERS. [14] Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; SAVE ME, AND I SHALL BE SAVED: for thou art my praise.

ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

The 3 scriptures above are ofcourse speaking of Jesus.

JER.17 [16] As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.[17] Be not a terror unto me: THOU ART MY HOPE IN THE DAY OF EVIL.[18] Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

Above scripture speaks of Jesus being our hope in the day of evil. The Day of the Lord

JER.17 [24] And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to BRING IN NO BURDEN THROUGH THE GATES OF THIS CITY ON THE SABBATH DAY, BUT HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, to do no work therein;[25] Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: AND THIS CITY SHALL REMAIN FOR EVER.

I only know of one city which will remain for ever. According to the above scripture the sabbath will be being kept by those who are to enter the gates to the city. Says the same thing in Rev.22. All ten, including the 4th.

MATT.11 [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.[30] For MY YOKE IS EASY, AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT.

JER.17 [24] And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to BRING IN NO BURDEN THROUGH THE GATES OF THIS CITY ON THE SABBATH DAY

Once again the new verifies the old.

 

[Chowmah]

REV. 22 [14] Blessed are THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Do you think you can forsake Gods law and keep not His commandments, and still be crowned and enter into the (city) kingdom.

REV. 3 [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [11] Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. [12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

PROVERBS 4 [1] Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. [2] For I give you good doctrine, FORSAKE YE NOT MY LAW. [3] For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. [4] He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, AND LIVE. [5] Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. [6] Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. [7] Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. [8] Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. [9] She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: A CROWN OF GLORY shall she deliver to thee.

PSALM 89 [27] Also I will make him MY FIRSTBORN, higher than the kings of the earth. [28] My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. [29] His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. [30] IF HIS CHILDREN FORSAKE MY LAW, and walk not in my judgments; [31] If they break my statutes, AND KEEP NOT MY COMMANDMENTS; [32] Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. [33] Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. [34] My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. [38] But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. [39] Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: THOU HAST PROFANED HIS CROWN BY CASTING IT TO THE GROUND.

2 TIM. 2 [1] Thou therefore, my son, BE STRONG IN THE GRACE THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS. [2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. [3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. [5] And if a man also strive for masteries, YET IS HE NOT CROWNED, EXCEPT HE STRIVE LAWFULLY.

The scriptures speak for themselves

 

[billwald]

>The scriptures speak for themselves

Then why are there over 100 Christian denominations, all claiming to follow the Bible?

 

[Chowmah]

Hey Billwald
Mainly because there are people wholl read a scripture that exactly says If you love me keep my commandments and they will say the scripture does not say If you love me keep my commandments. The song and dance begins