Acts 13:48

[Skandelon]

I try not to get into these discussions, but the quoting of 2 Cor 5:19 prompts a question.

If "world" in that verse means everyone without exception, how, then can this verse not be interpreted as universalism? I look forward to the exegesis.

It doesn't mean everyone without exception. It means whosoever accepts the appeal to be reconciled, which is clearly meant for all without exception.

 

[DHK]

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Note that in God's realm of His sovereignty He has left a place for man's free will. He has not predetermined man's salvation outside of his foreknowledge. To do so would make man nothing more than a robot, or to force salvation down his throat so to speak.
What happened?
The Gentiles heard. Why?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It was necessary that they hear the word of God in order that they be saved. This is not predetermined salvation/election. It is based on those that hear the Word and then having heard the Word make a choice whether to believe or not to believe. It is their choice. God does not force them to make this decision.

After they believed, (and speaking only of the ones that believed--there were no doubt some that did not believe), they rejoiced, and glorified, not only God, but the Word that they heard. Why? Because it was through the Word that they met Christ. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Had they not heard the Word they would not be saved.

Had not the apostles been obedient and obeyed the Great Commission and gone to them they would not have been saved. It works both ways. It is our obligation to obey God and witness of the saving grace of God to give them the opportunity to hear it so that they might be saved. The choice is ours to obey God and be a witness for him or not to obey God and not witness. Their blood will be upon our hands. They will not be saved unless we go and tell them. They must hear the word of God in order to be saved. They glorified the word of God.

And as many as were appointed to eternal life were saved. The words ordained, and those words that speak of predestination always refer to the believer. They come after the person puts his faith in Christ. God knows who is going to be saved; we don't, and we ought not to presume to have the foreknowledge of God, therefore the entire point of the "elect" is moot for we cannot see what God sees. Our obligation is to go and tell others the gospel that they may hear and have the opportunity to be saved. And that is what that verse teaches.

 

[Ron Wood]

People say that about Calvinistic versions of many texts everyday...

Do you expect any of us to swallow you're interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim 2:4, John 3:16-17, or especially verses like:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

And

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation

Each of those passages are explained in their context to mean exactly what they say. What you have offered isn't. You added something that isn't in the text. The word world is always qualified but the word Gentiles is not. You have added a qualification that makes the wording of the text nonsense.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Right, I know. And that group is made up of many different people groups. Unlike the Jews, the term "Gentiles" is a group of various nations.

But the passage still says that those who were appointed to eternal life believed.

It is clear it was talking about those who were there listening to the preaching on that day.

No more no less than those who were appointed believed.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Or course not. But I don't believe God desires all men to be saved without exception either. He desires all men to freely choose to repent and worship Him, not that everyman will just be saved regardless of what they would freely decide.

Did God appoint all men to freely choose to repent and worship him?

Are there some that decide to repent and follow Christ who will not be saved?

 

[Andy T.]

People say that about Calvinistic versions of many texts everyday...

Which is why both sides should try to refrain from those types of charges, since both sides have difficult passages to deal with. I'll have to say, I see this charge coming more from A's against C's than vice versa. But I'm biased.

 

[Skandelon]

Which is why both sides should try to refrain from those types of charges, since both sides have difficult passages to deal with. I'll have to say, I see this charge coming more from A's against C's than vice versa. But I'm biased.

Yes you are bias. If you spent your time explaining the Arminian view of "difficult" passages you would be much more privy to this charge from the Calvinistic side. I've been on both sides of this debate and trust me it is pretty equal on both sides.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

And as many as were appointed to eternal life were saved. The words ordained, and those words that speak of predestination always refer to the believer.

The passage doesn't say that though. It says "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." It is clear that the appointment to eternal life took place before the believing. Because they were appointed they believed.

They come after the person puts his faith in Christ. God knows who is going to be saved;

Why does God know? Because he appointed them to be saved. He predestined them to be saved. If he didn't he wouldn't know who was going to be saved, he would at some point have to learn who was going to be saved. God doesn't learn though. He already knows everything.

we don't, and we ought not to presume to have the foreknowledge of God, therefore the entire point of the "elect" is moot for we cannot see what God sees. Our obligation is to go and tell others the gospel that they may hear and have the opportunity to be saved. And that is what that verse teaches.

I agree that we are to preach the gospel to all men. That is the great commisssion and God is pleased with that.

However the doctrine of election is indeed important or it wouldn't be stressed over and over again in scripture. It is a pastoral doctrine that edifys the believer in the knowledge that they are loved and protected by God and that is evident in the fact that they have faith in Jesus Christ.

THe bible teaches God's sovereignty because GOd is glorified in it and his children learn not to fear anything because God will always get his way.

"If God is for us, who can be against us."

 

[Skandelon]

Each of those passages are explained in their context to mean exactly what they say.

Which is exactly our claim about this verse.

What you have offered isn't. You added something that isn't in the text.

Which is exactly our claim about what you say about those other verses.

The word world is always qualified but the word Gentiles is not.

By whom? The qualification is offered by the one doing the interpretation of the text, whether a Calvinist addressing the word "all" or "world" or an Arminian addressing the various Gentiles nations. What's your point?

You have added a qualification that makes the wording of the text nonsense.

Which is the exact charge brought against the Calvinistic interpretation of the texts I mentioned. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Skandelon]

Did God appoint all men to freely choose to repent and worship him?

Depends on what you mean by "appoint"

If you mean, "Did God effectually cause all men to freely choose to repent," then no, because that would be a contradiction. How does one "make" someone do something freely? Plus that would be universalism.

If you mean, Did God allow/permit mankind to freely choose to repent?" then yes, I agree.

Are there some that decide to repent and follow Christ who will not be saved?

Not if they did so genuinely.

 

[Skandelon]

But the passage still says that those who were appointed to eternal life believed.

It is clear it was talking about those who were there listening to the preaching on that day.

No more no less than those who were appointed believed.

Ok, you are clearly not understanding my perspective. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but could you just simply restate what I believe so I know you at least understand my argument? Otherwise we are just talking past each other.

 

[DHK]

The passage doesn't say that though. It says "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." It is clear that the appointment to eternal life took place before the believing. Because they were appointed they believed.

Because they believed they were appointed. Election always refers to the believer. Do you deny the foreknowledge of God??

Why does God know? Because he appointed them to be saved. He predestined them to be saved. If he didn't he wouldn't know who was going to be saved, he would at some point have to learn who was going to be saved. God doesn't learn though. He already knows everything.

If God has predetermined them to be saved then why not go one step further. Did he predetermine those Muslims to fly planes into the WTC. Does he predetermine all rapes and abortions? Is he the author of evil? Does he ordain all things? No. He, in the great scheme of His sovereignty allows man to exercise a certain amount of free will. And thus the Bible says that every man shall give account of himself. Why would man have to give account of himself if everything was predetermined? That doesn't make sense. God is at fault if everything is predetermined.
Foreknowledge is different than predetermination.

I agree that we are to preach the gospel to all men. That is the great commisssion and God is pleased with that.

Why is he pleased with that?
Because not all things are predetermined. Man has a free will.

However the doctrine of election is indeed important or it wouldn't be stressed over and over again in scripture. It is a pastoral doctrine that edifys the believer in the knowledge that they are loved and protected by God and that is evident in the fact that they have faith in Jesus Christ.

They have faith in Christ because they chose to have faith in Christ. God knew about it. He knew that it would happen. But he did not force the matter. He did not predetermine it.

THe bible teaches God's sovereignty because GOd is glorified in it and his children learn not to fear anything because God will always get his way.

I don't deny the sovereignty of God; but I believe I have a better understanding of it than you do. I believe that God can be sovereign and allow the free will of man at the same time.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

How does one "make" someone do something freely? Plus that would be universalism.

The historic orthodox position is this: Man in his natural state is at enmity with God. God regenerates those he has chosen to salvation at the appointed time upon their exposure to the gospel. A man with a regenerated heart will choose God freely because his eyes have been opened and he can see clearly the truth.

In other words, man always has free will. HOwever, his choices are limited to his nature and perspective.

God gives the regenerate a new nature and a new perspective and they freely choose him immediatley after opening their eyes to see what is in front of them.

If you mean, Did God allow/permit mankind to freely choose to repent?" then yes, I agree.

I agree as well. The truth is that the one who repents must be regenerated first or he will not repent.

Ok, you are clearly not understanding my perspective. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but could you just simply restate what I believe so I know you at least understand my argument? Otherwise we are just talking past each other.

You are saying that the passage in question isn;t referring to people in that group being appointed and then believeing you are saying that the passage has a much broader meaning outside of the scope of the context.

 

[freeatlast]

Acts 13:48 ESV
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

What does this pasage teach us?

What sticks out to me is the last part, "and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

I believe this passage clearly shows that God elects people to salvation and those elect people believe as a result of that election.

So it is not their belief that caused their election to eternal life but their election to eternal life that caused their belief.

The Greek word has no futuristic value to it. It simply means that someone with authority at some time appointed or ordained something or someone to something. In the context it simply means that at the time of their receiving the truth they were appointed, not that in some time past before they accepted they were appointed having to come at some future point.

 

[Ron Wood]

Which is exactly our claim about this verse. Which is exactly our claim about what you say about those other verses.
By whom? The qualification is offered by the one doing the interpretation of the text, whether a Calvinist addressing the word "all" or "world" or an Arminian addressing the various Gentiles nations. What's your point?

Which is the exact charge brought against the Calvinistic interpretation of the texts I mentioned. Thanks for proving my point.

The difference is that when we add a quailfier to the words world and all it is legitimate. World and all require a qualifier. If I just say world or all in order for you to understand what I am talking about you must ask which world and all what. But that is not the case with the word Gentile. It has one connotation and is easily understood. It simply means non-Jew. For you to add a qualifier to it in this text is not required and therfore not legitimate.

 

[Skandelon]

The historic orthodox position is this

I think you mean "the historic Augustinian/Calvinistic orthodox position is"

In other words, man always has free will. HOwever, his choices are limited to his nature and perspective.

In a world where God decrees/determines the nature/desires of man in such a way that they can only do what God has decreed/determined for them to do, such a view of "free will" is meaningless. It's not free just because it is "according to what the agent desires" if those desires/nature are determined by someone outside the agent himself. Even instinctive animals act according to their desire, but we don't presume their choices to be free and thus morally accountable.

You are saying that the passage in question isn;t referring to people in that group being appointed and then believeing you are saying that the passage has a much broader meaning outside of the scope of the context.

Go back and reread what I have written. I explain it as clearly as I know how. If you still don't understand let me know and maybe I can try again in another way.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Do you deny the foreknowledge of God??

Of course not. The reason he knows everythng before it happens is because he has predestined everything that will happen to happen. If not God would have to learn and the bible is clear that he is immutable.

"I do not Change"...etc

If God has predetermined them to be saved then why not go one step further. Did he predetermine those Muslims to fly planes into the WTC. Does he predetermine all rapes and abortions?

Yes to all.

Is he the author of evil?

No. Evil is of the heart and there is no evil in God. He had decreed all things take place but the things thenselves that happen are in the eternal scheme of things to the benefit of God's people and to his glory in the destruction of all evil. If we didn't know evil we wouldn know how good God is who hates evil and will destroy it.

It is good that evil exist for the time it has been appointed to exist.

Does he ordain all things?

Yes.

No. He, in the great scheme of His sovereignty allows man to exercise a certain amount of free will. And thus the Bible says that every man shall give account of himself. Why would man have to give account of himself if everything was predetermined? That doesn't make sense. God is at fault if everything is predetermined.

Because you are responsible for your intentions and the state of your heart in every deed you do.

You make mistakes God does not. He does everything with full knowledge and for the right reasons with an infallible plan. We do everything with limited knowledge an evil intent with a chaotic plan.

God has done all of this for his pleasure and the good of those he has adopted into his family.

Why is he pleased with that?
Because not all things are predetermined. Man has a free will.

Man has a free will and is responsible for his decision,. God is pleased with the preaching of the gospel because it deserves to be preached and it glorifys him and is good news to the elect and a curse to the reprobate. The gospel is truth.

They have faith in Christ because they chose to have faith in Christ.

Man cannot chose what he believes. Man is limited by his perception of reality. That is why a person needs to be regenerated to believe the gospel is good and to believe God loves them and christ died for them and trust him alone for their salvation.

I believe that God can be sovereign and allow the free will of man at the same time.

Me too. It is illustrated nicely in scripture regarding the intent of the heart.

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good,"

 

[Osage Bluestem]

The Greek word has no futuristic value to it. It simply means that someone with authority at some time appointed or ordained something or someone to something. In the context it simply means that at the time of their receiving the truth they were appointed, not that in some time past before they accepted they were appointed having to come at some point.

"Those who were appointed to eternal life believed."

It is crystal clear that the context declares the people were appointed by a sovereign God to eternal life and because of that htey believed.

Faith is a great gift of God that lets you see reality for what it really is. Faith is a gift of assurance in your salvation in Christ.

God gives faith to those who he elected to salvation at teh appointed time they are to receive the gift.

 

[Skandelon]

The difference is that when we add a quailfier to the words world and all it is legitimate.

Well, surprise, surprise, you think you're right and were wrong. Amazing.

World and all require a qualifier.

And what is the meaning of the word "Gentiles?" Does it not need qualification or defining?

But that is not the case with the word Gentile. It has one connotation and is easily understood. It simply means non-Jew.

So a Samartian is a non-Jew, right? What about a Ninevite? Or a Philistine? Edomite? All are Gentiles, right? Considering that many in those days argued about national election and made the case again and again that only Israel was elect, wouldn't it mean something to a debate about various nationalities coming to faith? Really?

No qualification needed, uh? Ok. You will hear what you want to hear.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I think you mean "the historic Augustinian/Calvinistic orthodox position is"

Perhaps I should just say the biblical position.

In a world where God decrees/determines the nature/desires of man in such a way that they can only do what God has decreed/determined for them to do, such a view of "free will" is meaningless. It's not free just because it is "according to what the agent desires" if those desires/nature are determined by someone outside the agent himself. Even instinctive animals act according to their desire, but we don't presume their choices to be free and thus morally accountable.

Animals are not like humans at all. They were not created in the beginning in the image of God.

Humans are and are accountable for the intentions of their heart in all of their actions.