Three Vital Questions.

[Van]

Reply to Earth, Wind and Fire

how do you interpret 1 Cor 2:14?

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

As commonly interpreted by Calvinists, the verse says a person without the Spirit does not accept any and all things that come from the Spirit of God. Note this view does two things. (1) it adds "any and all" and (2) removes the qualifier "discerned only through the Spirit."

My alternate view is the person without the Spirit (i.e. a natural fallen person who has not been indwelt) does not accept some things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them (spiritually discerned things) foolishness and cannot understand them (because of not being indwelt) because they are discerned only through the Spirit. This leaves the door open for 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 which says men of the flesh (not yet saved) and babes in Christ cannot handle "meat or solid food" but can understand milk (the milk or fundamentals of the gospel).

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I am saying fallen men, and we are fallen sinners, are born with limited but sufficient spiritual ability to respond appropriately to the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

No, I am not saying those who respond to the gospel have "sinned less" than those who do not understand it, such as the first soil in Matthew 13.

Hebrews 3:13 says the deceitfulness of sin hardens our hearts.

I am trying to understand you.

When you answered the question about how a sinner believes on Christ, you responded by saying they must hear the gospel and have sufficient spiritual ability to respond to the gospel.

That, to me, indicated that you believe some have "sufficient spiritual ability" and that some do not.

Are you saying that everyone has sufficient spiritual ability to respond? If so, why make that a condition for belief in Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

[Van]

I am trying to understand you.

That, to me, indicated that you believe some have "sufficient spiritual ability" and that some do not.

Are you saying that everyone has sufficient spiritual ability to respond? If so, why make that a condition for belief in Christ?

peace to youraying:

Everyone starts out with sufficient but limited spiritual ability, but then some can so harden their hearts by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb. 3:13) that they become like the first soil in Matthew 13:1-23.

 

[canadyjd]

Everyone starts out with sufficient but limited spiritual ability, but then some can so harden their hearts by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb. 3:13) that they become like the first soil in Matthew 13:1-23.

So, you are saying everyone begins with sufficient spiritual ability to respond to the gospel, but that because of sin, some lose that ability.... is that what you are saying?

peace to youraying:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As commonly interpreted by Calvinists, the verse says a person without the Spirit does not accept any and all things that come from the Spirit of God. Note this view does two things. (1) it adds "any and all" and (2) removes the qualifier "discerned only through the Spirit."

My alternate view is the person without the Spirit (i.e. a natural fallen person who has not been indwelt) does not accept some things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them (spiritually discerned things) foolishness and cannot understand them (because of not being indwelt) because they are discerned only through the Spirit. This leaves the door open for 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 which says men of the flesh (not yet saved) and babes in Christ cannot handle "meat or solid food" but can understand milk (the milk or fundamentals of the gospel).

Thanks....I will know now to keep my distance.

 

[Ron Wood]

Sorry that I haven't gotten back to the thread. I have been out of town and busy. I hope to get the time to read through the answers tomorrow.

 

[Tom Butler]

I have not advocated universalism. I was referring to 2 Corinthians 5:19.

So, "world" in that verse doesn't mean every person without exception?

If God, in Christ, was reconciling every person without exception, and their trespasses not counted against them, then you can see how this has to be considered universalism.

Since you say you don't advocate it, that's the reason I asked if you defined "world" as not meaning every one without exception.

 

[Luke2427]

so, "world" in that verse doesn't mean every person without exception?

If god, in christ, was reconciling every person without exception, and their trespasses not counted against them, then you can see how this has to be considered universalism.

Since you say you don't advocate it, that's the reason i asked if you defined "world" as not meaning every one without exception.

bingo!!
______

 

[psalms109:31]

World means universal that is who He loved that He sent His Son, but not universal will be saved only believers in Jesus will be saved according to God and His word. God isn't going to reveal the truth to everyone, I agree. He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to children those who do not lean on their own understanding, but trust in the Lord. This is the good pleasure of God, don't you just love Him.

You can believe what you want to before the cross, when it comes to after the cross and when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. In short He must be high and lifted up and those of us must see Him that way.

That we are a sinner, dead in sin. That when we turn to Jesus then and only then will the veil be removed. That we are no better than anyone else, it is God who said that He will save believers, not man. Many have lifted their own self up. Then they say God chosen them and it makes it all better.

Jesus did something wonderful after His glorification. He condemned sin to the flesh. His word which is Spirit and life reaches past our very flesh right to the soul. It places two roads in front of it to believe in Jesus and be saved or continue in unbelief and be condemned.

This what some say about those who believes in the word of God what it say's and trusted in Jesus and that them trusting in the word of God makes them say they are better than everyone else?

If they don't come it isn't because of God, because He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It isn't because of the message, because the words of Jesus is Spirit and life. It is because of them and their own evil desire.

So don't beat yourself if they don't come to the message or God, because He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you don't come to Christ and humble yourself and trust in the Lord you can only blame yourself where you end up, because you have no excuse.

 

[Ron Wood]

1. What happened in the Garden?
This question I think addresses the issue of how was natural mans nature
altered supernaturally by God's curse? Clearly they were separated spiritually from God. They were expelled and precluded from re-entering. And as a result, all mankind is conceived in inquiry, in a spiritually separated from God state. When scripture says we were "made" sinners, for sure it means we are spiritually "dead" meaning separated from God as unable to do anything to re-enter the "kingdom of God." But it gets worse. Recall when Adam sinned, both Adam and Eve's eyes were opened? This speaks to their spiritual corruption, resulting in mankind's predisposition to sin once we know right from wrong.

I think most of us would agree with the above. Where we part ways is the assertion that being spiritually dead, separated from God, result in total spiritual inability, unable to respond to the gospel. I believe fallen natural man can understand the milk of the gospel, such that we can trust in Christ in a way which God could choose to credit as righteousness, Romans 4:5.

How can a man be dead and not dead? I recognize that you attempt to explain death as something other than dead, subtly for sure, but it is still a contradiction. Either we died in Adam or we didn't. So if your assertion is correct why don't you go to the graveyards and preach the Gospel there? Of course it is because they have no ability to hear because they are dead. To be dead is to be without life, without ability to respond to anything. You can pour all the milk, medicine, all the electrical power at your disposal or anything else into him and he cannot respond. He is still dead. A dead man must be given life before he can even hear or see the kingdom of God. John 3:3-8, 1John 5:1

2. What happened at the Cross?

Here the question probably addresses whether Christ died for the supposedly preselected elect, or whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Since false teachers have been "bought" I think Christ died not only for us but also for the whole world - referring to all mankind. But reconciling the world does not mean anyone received that reconciliation. Only when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually places us in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) do we receive the reconciliation, and become one of the redeemed.

I think the illustration of the oil lease best illustrates what was accomplished on the cross. Picture a "Big Oil Man" buying a lease for oil on a section of ground. He now has the right to extract all or some or none of the oil, but the oil so to speak has been bought with a price. Now when He extracts some oil, it is like God transferring us from the realm of darkness into His kingdom. Similarly all mankind has been "bought" but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness and spiritually placed "in Christ" receive the reconciliation.

So your argument is based on being bought. Of course you are refering to 2Pet. 2:1 were he says that the false prophets are bought by the Lord. First I would point out that the word translated Lord there is a different word than the word normally translated Lord. It is the word from which we get our word despot. You may recall some passages where the Lord Jesus tells us that all power is given to Him. Does He not already have all power as God? Of course He does and shows it by the many miracles He did. So then we must ask what is meant by all power being given to Him. It was given to Him as a man. He, by His obedient life and death, bought the right to rule as King of Glory as a man. He is right now a man sitting on the throne of all creation. So how does that relate to Him being the Lord who bought the false prophets? He bought them as property but He did not redeem them. The word bought there is also different than the word redeem. The man Christ Jesus is the Lord, despot, of all men whether they recognize it or not. We do not make Him Lord God did.

3. How is it that a sinner believes on Christ?

First the sinner must hear the gospel, and then have sufficient spiritual ability to respond appropriately such that God credits their faith as righteousness. It is possible to hear such a corrupted gospel (another gospel) that misses the mark so far as to not provide the opportunity to respond appropriately. I think this happened in Matthew 23:13.

Second the sinner may have hardened his or her own heart such that it is as if they never heard the gospel, what limited spiritual ability they had has been lost, like the first soil of Matthew 13. (And of course, in Romans 11, we see that God has hardened the hearts of some, for His purpose, such that they could not respond, in order to spread the gospel.)

I am sorry but this is pure salvation by works. It isn't even a subtle salvation by works as most Arminians try to claim.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Here are three vital questions that shape everything we believe about what the Gospel is. How you answer these three questions determines how you view everything else.

1. What happened in the Garden?

2. What happened at the cross?

3. How is it that a sinner believes on Christ?

I will let you answer before I offer what I trust my soul to be the truth of these questions.

This is an interesting thread Ron. I'll take a crack at an answer.

1. Man rebelled against God and because of that was cursed justly and separated from God. Man became an unholy thing, spiritually dead and naturally depraved.

2. Christ payed the price for the sins of those who the Father gave him.

3. He is regenerated by God upon exposure to the gospel and then he naturally believes, repents, and follows Christ.

 

[quantumfaith]

World means universal that is who He loved that He sent His Son, but not universal will be saved only believers in Jesus will be saved according to God and His word. God isn't going to reveal the truth to everyone, I agree. He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to children those who do not lean on their own understanding, but trust in the Lord. This is the good pleasure of God, don't you just love Him.

You can believe what you want to before the cross, when it comes to after the cross and when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. In short He must be high and lifted up and those of us must see Him that way.

That we are a sinner, dead in sin. That when we turn to Jesus then and only then will the veil be removed. That we are no better than anyone else, it is God who said that He will save believers, not man. Many have lifted their own self up. Then they say God chosen them and it makes it all better.

Jesus did something wonderful after His glorification. He condemned sin to the flesh. His word which is Spirit and life reaches past our very flesh right to the soul. It places two roads in front of it to believe in Jesus and be saved or continue in unbelief and be condemned.

This what some say about those who believes in the word of God what it say's and trusted in Jesus and that them trusting in the word of God makes them say they are better than everyone else?

If they don't come it isn't because of God, because He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It isn't because of the message, because the words of Jesus is Spirit and life. It is because of them and their own evil desire.

So don't beat yourself if they don't come to the message or God, because He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you don't come to Christ and humble yourself and trust in the Lord you can only blame yourself where you end up, because you have no excuse.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

BINGO!!!!

 

[Ron Wood]

World means universal that is who He loved that He sent His Son, but not universal will be saved only believers in Jesus will be saved according to God and His word. God isn't going to reveal the truth to everyone, I agree. He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to children those who do not lean on their own understanding, but trust in the Lord. This is the good pleasure of God, don't you just love Him.

You can believe what you want to before the cross, when it comes to after the cross and when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. In short He must be high and lifted up and those of us must see Him that way.

That we are a sinner, dead in sin. That when we turn to Jesus then and only then will the veil be removed. That we are no better than anyone else, it is God who said that He will save believers, not man. Many have lifted their own self up. Then they say God chosen them and it makes it all better.

Jesus did something wonderful after His glorification. He condemned sin to the flesh. His word which is Spirit and life reaches past our very flesh right to the soul. It places two roads in front of it to believe in Jesus and be saved or continue in unbelief and be condemned.

This what some say about those who believes in the word of God what it say's and trusted in Jesus and that them trusting in the word of God makes them say they are better than everyone else?

If they don't come it isn't because of God, because He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It isn't because of the message, because the words of Jesus is Spirit and life. It is because of them and their own evil desire.

So don't beat yourself if they don't come to the message or God, because He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you don't come to Christ and humble yourself and trust in the Lord you can only blame yourself where you end up, because you have no excuse.

So the love of God is meaningless to all those who refuse to believe. It is a love without power. It is a love without without love. What do think the world would do to a parent that loves the way you say God does?

 

[psalms109:31]

So the love of God is meaningless to all those who refuse to believe. It is a love without power. It is a love without without love. What do think the world would do to a parent that loves the way you say God does?

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[ Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I would say praise God that He has given the world a way out through Jesus Christ and made us who believe His messenger. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on and the scripture teaches the one who trust in the Lord will not be disappointed or put to shame

John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

 

[percho]

Man being created a mortal being with free will did exactly what God knew he would do having free will, he chose himself over his creator therefore dying he did die forever unless God should intervene in his behalf.

Before he created the being spoken of above God determined that God that is the Word would be made as his created and is the only one by his free will to chose the will of his Father in heaven yet paid the price of death therefore redeeming the created back unto himself.

Through election God calls whom he will: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one.

The free will of God?

 

[Ron Wood]

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[ Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I would say praise God that He has given the world a way out through Jesus Christ and made us who believe His messenger. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on and the scripture teaches the one who trust in the Lord will not be disappointed or put to shame

John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

Scrathing my head wondering what this has to do with anything I said. Oh perhaps you mean for me to see that part about God being in Christ reconciling the world. OK, but if that means that everybody in the world is reconciled then why does God send anyone to Hell?

You have not only attempted to sidestep what I said but just ignored it. I will not waste time with those who aren't honest enough to even engage what is being said.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scrathing my head wondering what this has to do with anything I said. Oh perhaps you mean for me to see that part about God being in Christ reconciling the world. OK, but if that means that everybody in the world is reconciled then why does God send anyone to Hell?

You have not only attempted to sidestep what I said but just ignored it. I will not waste time with those who aren't honest enough to even engage what is being said.

You want to belittle me, that is fine if that is your coarse of action. You going to judge me that I am dishonest in your opinion.

I was talking about God loved the world. The world without exception. I was replying yes God loved the world that He sent His Son without exception, but the salvation part has an exception that you believe trust in Jesus. Men want to limit world to how they see it, instead of how God sees it, every little thing in it, so much that He sent His Son.

They are condemned not because they were not chosen they were not saved because they have not believed in His one and only Son His begotten, How can they believe in something they never heard, how can they believe if no one is sent. How beautiful is the feet that bring the God news.

God is reconciling the world not counting their sins against them, and gave us this message of reconciliation, that if anyone turns to Jesus, Jesus will remove the veil. He will open their eyes.

No matter how hard people try to change the meaning of word to fit their doctrine of what is meant by the word world. It will always be there telling every new believer that God loved the world that He sent His Son and generation after generation of those that don't agree with it are going to have to go through a vicious cycle proving that they are wrong. Now we know that God loved the world now we can go on to the next verse that those who trust in Jesus will be saved.

My concern is the message and the hope the world has through Jesus Christ.

What people do with Jesus Christ is the most vital of it all.

 

[convicted1]

Psalms109:31,

I really do enjoy your posts, especially the last two. Good job!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Here are three vital questions that shape everything we believe about what the Gospel is. How you answer these three questions determines how you view everything else.

1. What happened in the Garden?

2. What happened at the cross?

3. How is it that a sinner believes on Christ?

I will let you answer before I offer what I trust my soul to be the truth of these questions.

1.) Mankind died spiritually and the death sentence was pronounced upon all flesh.

2.) Jesus tasted death for every man by taking all the sins of the world and nailing them to the cross with Himself being the SUPREME SACRIFICE!!

3.) When God draws him to Himself by His Spirit!!

Now, this is coming from one who holds to FW, but I don't see that much of a difference in my view with others, with the exception of who He died for.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Ron Wood]

You want to belittle me, that is fine if that is your coarse of action. You going to judge me that I am dishonest in your opinion.

I was talking about God loved the world. The world without exception. I was replying yes God loved the world that He sent His Son without exception, but the salvation part has an exception that you believe trust in Jesus. Men want to limit world to how they see it, instead of how God sees it, every little thing in it, so much that He sent His Son.

They are condemned not because they were not chosen they were not saved because they have not believed in His one and only Son His begotten, How can they believe in something they never heard, how can they believe if no one is sent. How beautiful is the feet that bring the God news.

God is reconciling the world not counting their sins against them, and gave us this message of reconciliation, that if anyone turns to Jesus, Jesus will remove the veil. He will open their eyes.

No matter how hard people try to change the meaning of word to fit their doctrine of what is meant by the word world. It will always be there telling every new believer that God loved the world that He sent His Son and generation after generation of those that don't agree with it are going to have to go through a vicious cycle proving that they are wrong. Now we know that God loved the world now we can go on to the next verse that those who trust in Jesus will be saved.

My concern is the message and the hope the world has through Jesus Christ.

What people do with Jesus Christ is the most vital of it all.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat something in order too ignore the obvious you are still ignoring the obvious. Show me one time in any thread where I have changed the meaning of the word. I simply pointed out that it always needs a qualifier. I will ask you once more to answer the question if a parent loved their child as you say God loves the world what would you think of that parent?