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Communion - what to serve
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
A church should make a decision. If they choose to serve wine (which I feel is not wrong), they should also have the option of juice for those who struggle with alcoholism. I've heard of churches having two trays or separate areas on the tray for the two. In our church, we serve grape juice.
Old Union Brother
New Member
It doesn't bother me I have taken communion both ways. It is the intent with which the fruit of the vine is taken.
Tom Butler
New Member
Mojitos and saltines. People come from miles and miles just for communion.
I had to look up mojitos. Whoa! Now I can see why.
Seeriously, ours is a grape juice church. But I'll take either side and give you a good argument.
Mojitos and saltines. People come from miles and miles just for communion.
You have a rum cocktail with crackers? :thumbs:
Thats interesting....where are you .... Miami?
Then I want cigars after service.
freeatlast
New Member
Just about everything I read points to the last supper using fermented wine. It would have most likely been kosher, but real wine. So since the last supper was the end of that ritual and the beginning of the Table it would seem that real wine is called for even though no formula is given. For those who have a problem with drink I think that a substitute should be offered.
Now this raises another question. At Corinth where Paul is rebuking the church it is clear in the Greek that they were not just setting down to eat a wafer and drink a sip of wine. They were setting down to a full meal just like the Lord did at the last supper if you take how the Greek word is used. So why do we just mostly just eat a wafer, cracker or what ever and drink a very small cup?
When did the change come about?
Now this raises another question. At Corinth where Paul is rebuking the church it is clear in the Greek that they were not just setting down to eat a wafer and drink a sip of wine. They were setting down to a full meal just like the Lord did at the last supper if you take how the Greek word is used. So why do we just mostly just eat a wafer, cracker or what ever and drink a very small cup?
When did the change come about?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
See, I think you and I would be good buds in real life... :saint:
In Corinth they had a "love feast" as they called it, or a pot luck, as we would call it, before the actual service. This got out of hand. Thus the rebuke by Paul:
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. (1 Corinthians 11:22)
This in no way give legitimacy to the drinking of wine at the Lord's Table. It shows how carnal they were coming to church before the Lord's Table had even started. There were divisions among them:
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. (1 Corinthians 11:18)
--The poor ate with the poor; and the rich ate with the rich, not sharing their food with the poor who had barely anything to share. Paul rebukes them for their divisiveness.
For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. (1 Corinthians 11:21)
--The rich didn't care if the poor went home hungry; neither did they care if they got drunk. What a terrible state of carnality this church lived in. This was a feast that they had before the Lord's Supper took place.
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: (1 Corinthians 11:23)
--This verse starts an entirely new paragraph, introducing the manner in which the Lord's Supper should be taken. He has now finished with his rebuke of the past event, and now proceeds to warn them about the seriousness involved in this service. Go through the passage. See the warning about examining oneself. And then see the result in verse 30 of those that did abuse this service: weakness, sickness, and even death.
freeatlast
New Member
Why did some of them get sick and fall asleep from taking communion unworthily?
Are the bread and cup ONLY symbols like Zwingli thought? If they were, why the sickness and death?
I mean, I have always seen communion as the most solemn occasion whereby we remember the Lord'd death and His return and it is DEADLY serious and not to be taken lightly. But are the bread and fruit of the vine mere symbols? Somebody help me out! I don't hold with transubstantiation nor with consubstantiation. But I don't see how they could be mere symbols.
And what does "not discerning the LORD's body" mean? MODS: feel free to move this to another thread in case I've derailed this one.
Are the bread and cup ONLY symbols like Zwingli thought? If they were, why the sickness and death?
I mean, I have always seen communion as the most solemn occasion whereby we remember the Lord'd death and His return and it is DEADLY serious and not to be taken lightly. But are the bread and fruit of the vine mere symbols? Somebody help me out! I don't hold with transubstantiation nor with consubstantiation. But I don't see how they could be mere symbols.
And what does "not discerning the LORD's body" mean? MODS: feel free to move this to another thread in case I've derailed this one.
I may have just imagined it, but it seems like we have had this discussion before. Therefore, at the risk of being reprimanded for going off topic, I submit that communion bread must be strictly unleavened. Without unleavened bread it’s just another fellowship meal, not the Lord’s Supper. Whatever blessings we receive from participating in it are lost without unleavened bread. What say ye?
Last edited by a moderator:
Permission granted from the OP
in my opinion, the elements (bread and wine/juice) are merely bread and wine/juice and are symbolic of the body and blood of Christ. But there is an element where we are in fellowship with Christ as we share it with Him and with the fellowship of the saints.
The context of this passage is an extended discussion of the reality of the Body of Christ (the local church). Not discerning the Body is a disregard of the holiness and value of the local expression of the Body of Christ and the presence of Christ in the fellowship of communion (common union).
At Passover, when the Supper was instituted for us to follow, it was in the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Every bit of leaven or items containing leaven were not even touched.
Jesus used wine (unleavened; unfermented grape juice is FULL of leaven) and matzoh (unleavened). There would be no grape juice in a Torah-observant home if juice were even available (harvest had been months earlier and even the juice would have become wine or vinegar months previously with no refridgeration)
Our church follows that because of the significance of the elements themselves. Hard to have a "picture" of the body/blood of the sinless Lamb of God be represented by pizza/pepsi or saltines/koolaid. That would be an incorrect and misleading picture.
We us "Fre" wine - fully fermented and no leaven, but 99% alcohol removed. But it looks and tastes like a fine Merlot (Mediterranean grapes, unlike the Concord grapes found only in North America from which one would get welchade)
I think it is as important as baptism, the other ordinance of the church, to be as faithful to the mode/manner of Christ. This is why I am a Baptist and baptize by immersion after confession of repentance/faith.
Funny how it is a HUGE deal about one ordinance and then we don't think twice about defiling the other ordinance and its practice. Hmm.
Jesus used wine (unleavened; unfermented grape juice is FULL of leaven) and matzoh (unleavened). There would be no grape juice in a Torah-observant home if juice were even available (harvest had been months earlier and even the juice would have become wine or vinegar months previously with no refridgeration)
Our church follows that because of the significance of the elements themselves. Hard to have a "picture" of the body/blood of the sinless Lamb of God be represented by pizza/pepsi or saltines/koolaid. That would be an incorrect and misleading picture.
We us "Fre" wine - fully fermented and no leaven, but 99% alcohol removed. But it looks and tastes like a fine Merlot (Mediterranean grapes, unlike the Concord grapes found only in North America from which one would get welchade)
I think it is as important as baptism, the other ordinance of the church, to be as faithful to the mode/manner of Christ. This is why I am a Baptist and baptize by immersion after confession of repentance/faith.
Funny how it is a HUGE deal about one ordinance and then we don't think twice about defiling the other ordinance and its practice. Hmm.
convicted1
Guest
Watch out, Brother! I took this similiar stance, and the "attack hounds" jumped all over me!! In the ORBs, we take the unused portions and take them and bury them. I did this last August and I truly felt blessed in doing so. Jesus stated this as He handed them the bread after He broke it:
Matt. 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
So I think that the elements used, unleavened bread and grape juice/wine are more than mere symbols. If they are merely symbols, then go buy a loaf of bread and a bottle of Nehi grape pop and have communion. Now, I know that they(bread and juice) will not raise out of their little tomb, but they are more than mere symbols.....or that's the way I see it.
Now getting back to the OP......we use unleavened bread that the sisters baked the night before and Welch's grape juice. I would have no problem with wine, but I would prefer it be from someone who has made it at home, and not from the liquor store.....but that's me.
saturneptune
New Member
It is up to each local church to decide what form of elements to use.
I have never been in a Baptist church in the States that used wine.
I have never been in a Baptist church in Europe that used grape juice.
As I have stated before the seminary here in Prague uses wine from vineyards that were restored centuries ago by German Baptists.
I do not like the taste of alcohol, so I follow the tradition of some by holding the bread and then dipping it into the wine, a tiny bit, and then eating it.
Personally I believe Christ used unleavened bread because that is what was available that night. I also believe it is too much of a logical stretch to say because the bread was unleavened the wine, yes wine, was grape juice as wine has leavening in it. Just IMHO.
I have never been in a Baptist church in Europe that used grape juice.
As I have stated before the seminary here in Prague uses wine from vineyards that were restored centuries ago by German Baptists.
I do not like the taste of alcohol, so I follow the tradition of some by holding the bread and then dipping it into the wine, a tiny bit, and then eating it.
Personally I believe Christ used unleavened bread because that is what was available that night. I also believe it is too much of a logical stretch to say because the bread was unleavened the wine, yes wine, was grape juice as wine has leavening in it. Just IMHO.
The use of grape juice only came about when Mr. Welch,a Unitarian IIRC, developed grape juice specifically for use in communion. Grape juice doesn't typify the Lord's blood wine does.
The argument that we ought to use grape juice in order for the alcoholic to not be tempted is fallacious. I have never heard of an alcoholic ever returning to abuse of alcohol from taking wine in the Lord's Table. What a faithless generation it is when we can't even trust the Lord to preserve one from not returning to the abuse of alcohol while doing that which He commanded.
We are commanded to examine ourselves before we take the bread and wine but it isn't to see if we have any unconfessed sin, who doesn't, but to see if we are truly trusting Christ alone. If we can honestly say that we believe on Him we may partake.
Not discerning the Lord's body is simply not believing on Christ. It is not believing that His body being crushed under the wrath of God and His blood being shed is enough.
The argument that we ought to use grape juice in order for the alcoholic to not be tempted is fallacious. I have never heard of an alcoholic ever returning to abuse of alcohol from taking wine in the Lord's Table. What a faithless generation it is when we can't even trust the Lord to preserve one from not returning to the abuse of alcohol while doing that which He commanded.
We are commanded to examine ourselves before we take the bread and wine but it isn't to see if we have any unconfessed sin, who doesn't, but to see if we are truly trusting Christ alone. If we can honestly say that we believe on Him we may partake.
Not discerning the Lord's body is simply not believing on Christ. It is not believing that His body being crushed under the wrath of God and His blood being shed is enough.