2 Thessalonians 2:13 and others

[Jarthur001]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (American Standard Version)


13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The other verses....Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, and 1 Peter 2:9-10....Will fellow after we look at this verse.

A thread just came to the end, before others were able to give their own input. Below was the last post...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I have no interest in discussing the speculation of men concerning did God determine His plan, scripture says He determined it and logic says before His determination, He did not know what He had not yet determined. To argue about this is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pen.

Really? Let me ask you this, did you in any way speculate that God "obtained" information from something or someone?

Quote:
My pet verse is not 2 Thessalonians 2:13,

Maybe its not. You just quote it a lot as if it is.

Quote:
nor Matthew 23:13, nor Matthew 13:1-23, nor James 2:5, nor 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, nor 1 Peter 1:3-5, and note even 1 Peter 2:9-10. These come up to support my view of our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime vice before the foundation of the world.

Your "support verses" I plan on going through one my one in time. Just now I'm asking about one.
2 Thessalonians 2:13

Quote:
My pet verse, provided in my profile is John 1:29b.

I'll add that to the list...

Quote:
As to your questions, what is the meaning of : Through sanctification by the Spirit - this refers to the action of the Holy Spirit to set us apart spiritually by spiritually baptizing us into Christ.

Good...

So the HOLY SPIRIT Places us >>>>>INTO CHRIST
Right?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 1:30 tells us that it is God who puts us "in Christ" we do not put ourselves in.

Good
So GOD places us>>>>>>IN CHRIST.

Quote:
So this refers to "positional sanctification" where God transfers us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God.

Eph 2 says this is JUSTIFICATION and sanctification

Quote:
1Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
3among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,

DARK KINGDOM ABOVE...



4and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
6and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

KINGDOM OF LIGHT

Quote: by Van

Thus we are chosen "into" salvation with no delay. There can be no delay because of Romans 8:33 which says there can be no charge brought against God's elect.
With your view, before someone is saved by the effectual call, they are living and are sinners, but they are elect. So a charge could be brought against them.

1st...Romans 8 does not say this. It is asking who can bring a charge. And that charge has does not have to do with sin, but God atoning power.

But more to your point...So Eph 1...Elect before the foundation of the world ...means we are saved before we are born???????????

Quote:
Thus Calvinism is demonstrated false by Romans 8:33. My View, God chooses us during our physical lives based on crediting our faith as righteousness,

This means your view is wrong.

Christ....
I peter 1:20...
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Believers..
Eph 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight

Quote:
Romans 4:5, and then spiritually puts us in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. Thus God chose you (Thessalonians) from the beginning or as first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Romans 4 is telling us that the Law cannot save us.

Quote:
Who does the sanctifying? God in the person of the Holy Spirit sets us apart by placing us spiritually in Christ.

Set apart...for what reason?

>>>>>>> Check out Isa 43..

Quote:
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Set apart to believe.

And...this is just what your verse says.

1st "through sanctification of the Spirit" .....Or ........SET APART BY HOLY SPIRIT>>>HIS WORK ALONE.

What comes next???
2nd ...and belief of the truth


Pretty clear....right?

 

[Winman]

Jarthur001, I tried to think of an analogy of how I view election, and though all analogies fail to some degree, I think this is close.
Do you ever watch golf? I do not play, but my Dad was an avid player, a charter member of the Thousand Oaks course in Ponte Vedra Beach, Fl. that is today the home of the PGA, and the site of the annual TPC or "Player's Championship" with the famous island 17th Hole. When I was a teen this area was swamp and I used to hunt there.
Anyway, most major golf tournaments usually have one par 3 hole where if any player hits a hole-in-one they receive a new car.
Now, this is election. Any player who hits a hole-in-one has been chosen to receive a new car BEFORE the tournament begins.
The means has been provided as well. Every player who makes the cut will get 4 chances to make a hole-in-one on this hole.
However, only the player(s) who actually make a hole-in-one on this particular hole become those "chosen" or "elect" and get the new car. But they were chosen or elect BEFORE the tournament began.
Where this analogy fails is that we have no way to know who will make a hole-in-one beforehand, whereas God does know beforehand who will believe.

 

[Skandelon]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (American Standard Version)
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles, is fighting daily with Judaizers who claim that God didn't choose to save Gentiles, or if he did surely he wants them to convert to Judaism first. The Gentile Christians are being persecuted as is Paul continually by the Jewish elites. In that context, it makes perfect since for Paul to write to his predominately Gentile congregations about how he loves them and how God loves them and has "from the beginning" chosen for them to be saved through "belief of the truth."

This is another passage where Calvinists misunderstand the intent of the author because the historical context is not in view.

 

[quantumfaith]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (American Standard Version)
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles, is fighting daily with Judaizers who claim that God didn't choose to save Gentiles, or if he did surely he wants them to convert to Judaism first. The Gentile Christians are being persecuted as is Paul continually by the Jewish elites. In that context, it makes perfect since for Paul to write to his predominately Gentile congregations about how he loves them and how God loves them and has "from the beginning" chosen for them to be saved through "belief of the truth."

This is another passage where Calvinists misunderstand the intent of the author because the historical context is not in view.

Very nice take on that scripture passage Skandelon.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Skan, the issue is that Calvinists believe God unconditionally elects or chooses certain persons "in Christ". But when pressed, many Calvinists say this means "to be in Christ". Nobody can be "in Christ" before they were born, or else they would be born saved.
Non-Cals like myself see it differently, we believe God in his foreknowledge knows those who will believe and therefore be "in Christ" before they actually do and choses or elects these persons.
That may sound the same, but they are opposites. Calvinism believes a person is chosen as an unbeliever "to be in Christ", where non-Cals believe God elects or chooses only those he knows are "in Christ". Huge difference.

Thus, my golf analogy, the tournament has already chosen those who hit a hole-in-one will receive a new car. They are chosen BEFORE the tournament begins, BUT ONLY if they fulfill the condition of this choosing or election afterward. And they truly are chosen beforehand, a legal contract is signed before play begins.