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Randomness in the Bible?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Robert Snow
New Member
It is certainly supported with a real look at our world. Of course if you believe the lie that God ordained evil acts, like murder and rape, then your view of reality is somewhat skewed to begin with.
Still waiting for Scripture.
It looks like you gave your answer and followed it by your question. Do you think scripture tells us everything there is to know about God, especially how and why He does things? Incidentally, the answer to your question is "no" as you have already stated.
So then it cannot be supported by Scripture, right?
It is not a rational question. The Bible is not a science book. The Bible does not tell us everything about God and how God works.
One of the huge mistakes Moslems have made is insisting that the Koran has the answer to all questions. It does not ... and neither does the Bible.
For instance, can you support having a gall bladder operation from scripture. Is a gall bladder mentioned in scripture?
Do not try to make the Bible into something that is is not and was never indended to be. That leads to heresy.
We are not saying that the Bible is a science text book. But when it speaks on any matter it speaks authoritatively. The randomness of God and His creation calls into question His Holy character.The Lord does nothing at random. No Scripture can support such God-dishonoring junk.
My position on this subject has nothing to do with Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Arminians in the past,as was recently mentioned elsewhere,would be aghast with their mouths agape hearing this nonsense about God's randomness.
Right. Neither can it be disproved by scripture because scripture doesn't tell us everything there is to know about God.
I never cease to be amazed at how many hoops folks will jump through in order to deny the sovereignty of God. No the Bible doesn't tell us everything but it certanly does tell us about whether things happen at random or not.
So the question still remains: Can the idea of randomness be supported by the Scriptures?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Random
Don't let men play on words bring you away from the truth of God. I don't believe anything random happens to God at all. Men are given over to their own evil desire not a desire that comes from God, but our own evil desire. God does not claim it, He tells us where it comes from. God uses our own evil desire for the good of those who love Him. We are all going to die and that is a call to us to reach the world to repent, because we don't know the end of the world or our end of the world like our own death. What matters is what we do with Jesus.
This is what Jesus does with tragedy.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
Seasons come season go is this your last season, what matters is what you do with Jesus?
I see the theme of the Holy Bible for a sinners to do has always been to repent of our sin turn to God and now repent turn to God through Jesus Christ.
Men love to give scripture a different heart.
Don't let men play on words bring you away from the truth of God. I don't believe anything random happens to God at all. Men are given over to their own evil desire not a desire that comes from God, but our own evil desire. God does not claim it, He tells us where it comes from. God uses our own evil desire for the good of those who love Him. We are all going to die and that is a call to us to reach the world to repent, because we don't know the end of the world or our end of the world like our own death. What matters is what we do with Jesus.
This is what Jesus does with tragedy.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
Seasons come season go is this your last season, what matters is what you do with Jesus?
I see the theme of the Holy Bible for a sinners to do has always been to repent of our sin turn to God and now repent turn to God through Jesus Christ.
Men love to give scripture a different heart.
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Unless Scripture affirms that NOTHING happens by chance- that God determines it all- which, of course, it does without ambiguity.
Dead on.
This new, nameless theology is far more dangerous than Arminianism ever could have dreamed.
True classical Arminians would condemn this new, unorthodox, deistic theology which has emerged with the advent of abandonment of accountability to the orthodox, historical, Christian faith.
glfredrick
New Member
We know that there is a randomness that is built into the fabric of the universe. We call the study of that randomness "quantum mechanics" or quantum physics. At the sub-atomic level, there is an "appearance" of chaos, yet that chaos is bounded and performs on the macro level with predictability, i.e., we know that combining this atom with that atom will always make a certain molecule that behaves in a certain way, but like God, we cannot "pin down" the quantum operation to a level where we can make the universe deterministic.
We cannot "prove" any of the above via the text of Scripture, and in fact, the Scriptures point to an "orderly" universe created by an "orderly God." And so it is, quantum physics aside. The very reason we have science is because Christian theologians discerned that the orderly God described in the Bible created an orderly universe that could be examined, tested, and from those examinations and tests, conclusions drawn about the state of affairs of creation.
The interesting thing about the quantum state is that it is primarily one of information, i.e., "mind," versus something "mechanistic." When we stand on a "solid rock" we don't realize that we are in fact standing on a whole bunch of "information" that to us appears to have mass and physical properties that make it a solid substance, yet that is exactly the case. The atoms that make up the rock are made of sub-atomic particles, which are in turn made up of even smaller particles, that on the quantum level turn out to be nothing more than information arranged in such a way as to give solidity to what is, at its core, nothing more than positive and negative energy arranged in such a fashion as to be cohesive. The solid substance of our "rock" is not a mere illusion, it is real, but that does not take away from the fact that it is mostly the mind of God exercising divine will to arrange creation from out of nothing.
The latest state of affairs in the cosmological and physics world indicates that the study of this "information" or "mind" (those that desire an impersonal mechanistic universe prefer the term information, while those holding to a Creator prefer the term mind) is the latest, newest, hottest item of study. All of science has boiled down to the evidence that our cosmos was created by nothing more than thought.
I'm excited by this latest move, for the deeper science digs, the more evidence they find for the God of the Bible, who spoke this orderly universe into being.
As for the quantum state itself, with all its disorderliness, there is perhaps a valid theological reason for this that is wrapped around the nature of divine will and the free exercise of the will. Even nature has a will of sorts, though certainly bounded by the orderliness dictated by the Creator. The quantum state may be our observational discovery from the 2nd revelation (the general revelation of our cosmos versus the 1st revelation, the Word of God) of the handiwork of God and how it is that God can have His cake and eat it too.
We cannot "prove" any of the above via the text of Scripture, and in fact, the Scriptures point to an "orderly" universe created by an "orderly God." And so it is, quantum physics aside. The very reason we have science is because Christian theologians discerned that the orderly God described in the Bible created an orderly universe that could be examined, tested, and from those examinations and tests, conclusions drawn about the state of affairs of creation.
The interesting thing about the quantum state is that it is primarily one of information, i.e., "mind," versus something "mechanistic." When we stand on a "solid rock" we don't realize that we are in fact standing on a whole bunch of "information" that to us appears to have mass and physical properties that make it a solid substance, yet that is exactly the case. The atoms that make up the rock are made of sub-atomic particles, which are in turn made up of even smaller particles, that on the quantum level turn out to be nothing more than information arranged in such a way as to give solidity to what is, at its core, nothing more than positive and negative energy arranged in such a fashion as to be cohesive. The solid substance of our "rock" is not a mere illusion, it is real, but that does not take away from the fact that it is mostly the mind of God exercising divine will to arrange creation from out of nothing.
The latest state of affairs in the cosmological and physics world indicates that the study of this "information" or "mind" (those that desire an impersonal mechanistic universe prefer the term information, while those holding to a Creator prefer the term mind) is the latest, newest, hottest item of study. All of science has boiled down to the evidence that our cosmos was created by nothing more than thought.
I'm excited by this latest move, for the deeper science digs, the more evidence they find for the God of the Bible, who spoke this orderly universe into being.
As for the quantum state itself, with all its disorderliness, there is perhaps a valid theological reason for this that is wrapped around the nature of divine will and the free exercise of the will. Even nature has a will of sorts, though certainly bounded by the orderliness dictated by the Creator. The quantum state may be our observational discovery from the 2nd revelation (the general revelation of our cosmos versus the 1st revelation, the Word of God) of the handiwork of God and how it is that God can have His cake and eat it too.
Very interesting and enlightening. As usual your insight is stimulating. Your knowledge of these things obviously greatly exceeds mine and I appreciate you sharing it- sincerely.
I want to pin you down on a position here, though.
Are there things that happen that God did not predetermine in your view?
The Answer is yes
While nothing happens in God's creation that God did cause or allow, to the extent God created autonomous ability within creation, then God does not exhaustively predetermine everything that happens.
Does the Bible say things happen by chance? Yes. (Luke 10:31)
Does the Bible say we make choices where our choices alter the outcome? Yes (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Does God intervene to bring about what would not have happened without intervention? Yes (Romans 11)
Case closed.
While nothing happens in God's creation that God did cause or allow, to the extent God created autonomous ability within creation, then God does not exhaustively predetermine everything that happens.
Does the Bible say things happen by chance? Yes. (Luke 10:31)
Does the Bible say we make choices where our choices alter the outcome? Yes (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Does God intervene to bring about what would not have happened without intervention? Yes (Romans 11)
Case closed.
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I do not know who "arbo" is nor do I know what thread you are talking about. Please clarify.
Is Luke 10:31 the best you have?
Is that ALL you have??
If that is all you have, you really don't have anything, do you?
It is chance ONLY in the sense that the man did not INTEND himself to meet this man. It is most certainly not chance so far as God is concerned.
You need more than that.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Excellent post GL
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