Let us discuss the meaning of John 6

[J.D.]

As a former Calvinists I recognize that John 6 is a very vital passage used to support the concept of Total Depravity and the need for the Effectual Call ("drawing") in salvation. However, in this thread I'd like to explore whether this was the intent of the author:

Understanding the historical context and the audience is vital to understanding the authors intent. I think we can all agree that Jesus' audience was Israel in John 6. Within Israel at this time in history are two distinct groups of people:

1. Those who have been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father
2. Those who have not been enabled (drawn) to come to Jesus by the Father

We agree with this part, right?

Calvinists believe and teach:
#1 are the elect who are drawn by the effectual work of regeneration
#2 are the non-elect who remain in their Totally Depraved condition (unable to willingly believe and repent)

I submit:
#1 are the Remnant of Israel (Jews who have been reserved from the hardening process by which rebellious men are blinded in their rebellion and made unable to see the truth and come to faith and repentance temporarily)

#2 are the rest of Israel who have been temporarily hardened by the Father as spoken of in John 12:39-41: 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

So, the reason those in group 2 can't come to Christ is because they are being hardened in their rebellion so that God can accomplish his purpose of redemption on the cross, not because they were born non-elect and in some totally depraved condition as Calvinists presume upon the text. We KNOW why they weren't able to come because scripture tells us plainly in John 12:39 and its not a universal inborn condition of all mankind. Its simply because they are being blinded from the gospel and only once Christ is raised up will the gospel be sent to ALL the world to draw all men (John 12:32)

Those who WERE enabled (Group 1) were made up of people like the apostles (the 12) who were specifically handpicked and chosen for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the rest of the world. They were given by the Father for this noble cause and thus they have been more privy to the gospel, in that it is not hidden from them in parables (Mark 4) or they are not given the "spirit of stupor" (Rm 11). They are not being judicially hardened while the rest of Israel is. (Acts 28:21-28)

Although there were more Jews saved after the cross than before the cross, the total number of Jews that turned to Christ in the apostolic era and continuing even to today was and is a miniscule fraction of the whole population of Jews. That being the case, were most of those that were "temporarly hardened" not un-hardened sufficiently as to bring about their salvation? Was God's plan to "save His people from their sins" a failure? If hardening is only for historical purposes, why does the scripture use salvific language regarding the issue, such as in Romans 9-11?

 

[HankD]

What about God choosing people so that they may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called them. So those that are called (having heard and learned from the Father) are chosen so that may proclaim the excellencies of God. Thus we are the "called, chosen and faithful." Calling comes before choosing because many are called but few (those that heard and learned) are chosen. That I believe is the counsel of His will, His redemption plan as revealed in scripture.

Like I implied previously, we don't know the criteria at the personal level.

We weren't there and the Ephesians passage does not give it. The purpose, yes - for the praise of His glory.
The criteria at the individual level. No.

Why Jacob and not Esau? Why you and not your moral Mormon neighbor?

Knowing that criteria (if it is knowable this side of heaven) would stop the C vs A debate (IMO).


HankD

 

[Skandelon]

Although there were more Jews saved after the cross than before the cross, the total number of Jews that turned to Christ in the apostolic era and continuing even to today was and is a miniscule fraction of the whole population of Jews. That being the case, were most of those that were "temporarly hardened" not un-hardened sufficiently as to bring about their salvation?

Good question.

We can't know about all of them, because only God knows their heart. However, what we do know about those hardened at this time is this:

1. They might be provoked by envy of the Gentiles and saved (Rm 11:14)
2. They can be "grafted back in" if they leave their unbelief. (Rm 11:23)
3. The hardening is "in part" or "temporary" so not necessarily unto certain condemnation (11:25)

We also know that prior to this hardening they had ample opportunity to follow God, who "held out his hands to them all day (Rm 10:21) and desired to save them despite there unwillingness (Mt. 23:37). So, even if their hardening was unto death it would have been well deserved considering that their rebellion in the first place was their actual CHOICE and not something determined by God so that it could not have been otherwise.

Was God's plan to "save His people from their sins" a failure? If hardening is only for historical purposes, why does the scripture use salvific language regarding the issue, such as in Romans 9-11?

By no means! That is what Paul is answering in Romans 11, as I just noted above. The act of hardening/cutting off/binding them to disobedience is actually an act of mercy according to Paul. He concludes this section of scripture actually explaining this "32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

This is the same concept as when Paul instructs the church to cast out the unrepentant sinner in order to save their soul. How could casting them out save them? It could provoke their will to envy. It could make them reach the end of their sin (pig stye) so as to see where their sin leads, so that they may repent and return. Even hardening/cutting off is an act of divine mercy! That is just how loving and merciful our God is!!!

 

[J.D.]

Good question.

We can't know about all of them, because only God knows their heart. However, what we do know about those hardened at this time is this:

1. They might be provoked by envy of the Gentiles and saved (Rm 11:14)
2. They can be "grafted back in" if they leave their unbelief. (Rm 11:23)
3. The hardening is "in part" or "temporary" so not necessarily unto certain condemnation (11:25)

We also know that prior to this hardening they had ample opportunity to follow God, who "held out his hands to them all day (Rm 10:21) and desired to save them despite there unwillingness (Mt. 23:37). So, even if their hardening was unto death it would have been well deserved considering that their rebellion in the first place was their actual CHOICE and not something determined by God so that it could not have been otherwise.



By no means! That is what Paul is answering in Romans 11, as I just noted above. The act of hardening/cutting off/binding them to disobedience is actually an act of mercy according to Paul. He concludes this section of scripture actually explaining this "32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

This is the same concept as when Paul instructs the church to cast out the unrepentant sinner in order to save their soul. How could casting them out save them? It could provoke their will to envy. It could make them reach the end of their sin (pig stye) so as to see where their sin leads, so that they may repent and return. Even hardening/cutting off is an act of divine mercy! That is just how loving and merciful our God is!!!

I agree, only God knows their heart. And what does God know about their heart?

BTW on Rom 10:21, the bible does not say the God desired to save them, it says that that he would "anger them". (v19).

 

[Skandelon]

I agree, only God knows their heart. And what does God know about their heart?

Depends on the person and their choices...

BTW on Rom 10:21, the bible does not say the God desired to save them, it says that that he would "anger them". (v19).

Actually it says, "19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Further Paul says, "13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

So, God is HOLDING OUT HIS HANDS to obstinate people. How else can you interpret that?

Secondly, I agree there is anger and envy involved in provoking Israel. As Paul says. It MIGHT lead them to salvation. Anger and envy provoke the will. If you kick a rebellious man out of the church it will anger him and when he sees the fruit of those in the church he could grow envious. This could provoke him toward repentance. That is the purpose these emotions cause.

 

[Winman]

Like I implied previously, we don't know the criteria at the personal level.

We weren't there and the Ephesians passage does not give it. The purpose, yes - for the praise of His glory.
The criteria at the individual level. No.

Why Jacob and not Esau? Why you and not your moral Mormon neighbor?

Knowing that criteria (if it is knowable this side of heaven) would stop the C vs A debate (IMO).


HankD

But we do know whom God chose and why, it is plainly declared in scripture.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who God chooses and why is no mystery as Calivinism teaches, it is plainly declared in God's Word. God chose the foolish to confound the wise, he chose the weak to confound the mighty, he chose those who are base and despised, to bring to nought those that are noble. He did this that no flesh should glory in his presence.

God does not choose a person simply because they are poor, there are poor people who are atheists, or believe false religion. But generally speaking it is the poor and the base, the despised who trust in God. This is a constant theme in the OT, the poor and fatherless were often oppressed and exploited by the rich and powerful, even as they are today.

Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
8 He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.
9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.
10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.
11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.
14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

The rich and powerful have always oppressed the poor and fatherless. These poor and fatherless commit themselves and trust in God for they have no other help. It is these that trust in God that God has chosen.

It is not a mystery whatsoever who God has chosen and why.

 

[Van]

Reply to HankD

What about God choosing people so that they may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called them. So those that are called (having heard and learned from the Father) are chosen so that may proclaim the excellencies of God. Thus we are the "called, chosen and faithful." Calling comes before choosing because many are called but few (those that heard and learned) are chosen. That I believe is the counsel of His will, His redemption plan as revealed in scripture.

As I indicated above, we know the criteria. It is given in scripture.

Jacob and Esua were not chosen for salvation, they were chosen for God's purpose, the older would serve the younger.

Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God chose you from the beginning or as first fruits, for salvation through [1] sanctification by the Spirit [this where God sets us apart spiritually "in Christ] and [through] belief in the truth. This is the criteria, belief in the Truth as reckoned by God. No mystery, scripture is clear.

Your issue I believe is you think God chose individuals before creation but that view is untenable considering 1 Peter 2:9-10.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, please stop posting falsehoods. I said anyone who comes to Jesus will be saved, that is 100%. Your constant misrepresentation of my posts is regrettable. So to put it in order for you, (1) God draws, (2) some hear and learn, (3) these the Father gives to Christ, (4) these (ALL THE FATHER GIVES ME)come to Christ (arrive in Christ). Those who come to Christ, are those who God puts in Christ. Once spiritually in Christ the person is born again, saved forever.

Folks, please pay no attention when Iconoclast responds to my posts, they attack strawmen of his invention.

Van....Let me try this one more time.I will simplify it as much as possible.We are discussing jn6 :37-45 here is your order that you have just reposted...for the third time and it still does not match jn6:37

Vans order
1] God draws ...[wrong, God gives to the Son] All that the Father gives to me
2] some hear and learn.....[wrong, shall come to me, it is not some,it is all who come have learned of the Father, they have been taught of God]

3] these the Father gives....[wrong, they come because they were already given]

4]Those who come to Christ, are those who God puts in Christ.....

[wrong, They were already given to the Son,before the world was....Spirit baptism places all in saving union with Him .When a sinner is quickened, this work of the Spirit is put to his account translating him from darkness to light]

not some ........................1.....................2
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This was answered back in post5....you ignored it because you mis-understand jn 12:32

 

[zrs6v4]

I confess that I don't have answers, but I do have questions.

John 12:39-41 is a quote from Isaiah 6, where God calls Isaiah as a prophet to preach to Israel and call them to repentance. What I find fascinating is that God basically told Isaiah, "I want you to preach to them, but I can tell you now, they won't listen. The reason they won't listen is that I have blinded their eyes and blurred their understanding so they can't. If I gave them spiritual sight and understanding, they'd repent."

So when I see the Lord someday, I'll spend the first few years asking him to explain himself. I'll probably ask him why he didn't open their eyes and their understanding, why he didn't enable the Jews of Jesus' day. Why did he harden them so they couldn't see?

For that matter, why does he harden anybody, Jew or Gentile? He made it clear to Isaiah that if he opened their understanding, they'd repent. If God wants all to come to repentance, why didn't he do that?

I understand, God will eventually get glory from it. Just remember, all y'all plan to wait in line a while in Heaven while God 'splains things to me.

In regards to the OP I think you, Tom, were on the right track. I think, unless I'm seeing things very close minded, that it is a matter of how God hardens. I could agree with Skandelon that Jesus primary audience were Jewish folk, although it depended on where He was.

A question to deal with in relation to Skandelon's argument would be how does God harden?

A. Is it that God goes within the free will of the Jews who are thinking and seeking Him and prevents them from believing?

B. Does God simply leave them in depravity and continuing hardness as a result of their sin? (My view)

C. Is there another means by which God hardens?

If it is B. then yes, no one can come to the Father unless they are drawn. Clearly God saved many Jews although many of them rejected their Messiah. God's first audience in the early church were both Jews and Gentiles, although the Gentiles were more receptive both by God's natural means of grace and by His supernatural means. In its simplest form, God pulls His elect out by His work within them. Those who He hardens are hardened by their own unbelief and what seems to be God's lack of rescue toward their hard hearts.

For the fun of it, a hard heart results from unbelief, right? So what does a hard heart need? Humility, it needs to be humbled/softened to be receptive. Can they do that on their own? In the deepest sense no, they need the Spirit of God to help them listen in their hearts. What then do they need after humility because clearly there are many lost and receptive people in this world? They need a shepherd of their souls. That is the Spirit of truth to usher them to Christ (although sinners seek to use God apart from the Spirit). So whether dealing with Jew or Greek the issue remains the same. Hell born people need the Holy Spirit to lead them to Christ or the infinite deception of their sin will swallow them whole into the black hole of their hearts. This issue is best understood when the human heart is put into proper context. If a person is not infinitely dark at heart, then they might reach out on their own and find God as God desires. But if the human heart is indeed infinitely bad it will need God to not only give temporary bumps of help, but an abiding help that will work powerfully ad effectually within them to bring about salvation.

 

[HankD]

As I indicated above, we know the criteria. It is given in scripture.

Jacob and Esua were not chosen for salvation, they were chosen for God's purpose, the older would serve the younger.

Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God chose you from the beginning or as first fruits, for salvation through [1] sanctification by the Spirit [this where God sets us apart spiritually "in Christ] and [through] belief in the truth. This is the criteria, belief in the Truth as reckoned by God. No mystery, scripture is clear.

Your issue I believe is you think God chose individuals before creation but that view is untenable considering 1 Peter 2:9-10.

OK Van, we won't have a total meeting of the minds on these details apart from His purpose to be accomplished and will to be done in this age and those to come.

Thanks brother for the gracious dialogue.

HankD

 

[Skandelon]

In regards to the OP I think you, Tom, were on the right track. I think, unless I'm seeing things very close minded, that it is a matter of how God hardens. I could agree with Skandelon that Jesus primary audience were Jewish folk, although it depended on where He was.

A question to deal with in relation to Skandelon's argument would be how does God harden?

A. Is it that God goes within the free will of the Jews who are thinking and seeking Him and prevents them from believing?

B. Does God simply leave them in depravity and continuing hardness as a result of their sin? (My view)

C. Is there another means by which God hardens?

If it is B. then yes, no one can come to the Father unless they are drawn. Clearly God saved many Jews although many of them rejected their Messiah.

I agree with B as well, but i would clarify that they became hardened after their choice to rebel against God...they werent born in that condition. I would also add that since the gospel had the ability to bring repentance that Jesus/God was actively blinding them from its truth through hiding it in parables and sending a spirit of stupor...unnecessary steps if you hold to Total Depravity

God's first audience in the early church were both Jews and Gentiles, although the Gentiles were more receptive both by God's natural means of grace and by His supernatural means. In its simplest form, God pulls His elect out by His work within them. Those who He hardens are hardened by their own unbelief and what seems to be God's lack of rescue toward their hard hearts.

actually the gospel is not even sent to the gentiles until Peter has his dream and Paul is called to go to them, it was first to the jew and then the gentiles. the jews were hardened and rebellious to it but the gentiles were not (acts 28:28)

For the fun of it, a hard heart results from unbelief, right?

right, it is not a result of total depravity from birth, but from continued rebellion and unbelief

So what does a hard heart need? Humility, it needs to be humbled/softened to be receptive. Can they do that on their own? In the deepest sense no, they need the Spirit of God to help them listen in their hearts.

I agree. and what are the means the HS uses to humble and soften and provoke the heart of man?

1. The Gospel - a work of the HS
2. Outward Signs-blessed are they who dont see but still believe
3. Envy - Rom 11:14

Hell born people need the Holy Spirit to lead them to Christ or the infinite deception of their sin will swallow them whole into the black hole of their hearts

I agree and that is why the HS brought us the gospel and indwells the messengers to spread its truth...to presume this work of the HS is not sufficient is biblically unfounded.

If a person is not infinitely dark at heart, then they might reach out on their own and find God as God desires. .

No one here believes men are reaching out on their own, instead this is about men responding to a God who is reaching out to them with an appeal to be reconciled.