WHY Is there Such A lack Of Discernment In Charesmatic/Pentacostal Circles Today?

[JesusFan]

Speaking fromthe viewpoint of someone who was raised up in the "classical" pentacostal doctrines of the Assemblies of God...

Why is there such a lack of rightly deciding what is false/fake/bogus/ and demonic in modern day pentacostal Charismatic Churches?

Not saying are some fine teachers and pastors in those groups, just that it appears to have been "hi jacked" by word of faith, fake faith healers, prosperity teachers etc...

Where in the Bible are '5 fold" offices still present?
Know there are teachers/pastors/evangelist, where are there modern day prophet/apostles allowed for?

How come a majority of these "teachers/preachers/prophets" say and teach totally opposite word of God?

This lack of biblical discernment and biblical dishonesty drove me to becoming a Baptist...

Where are those strongly oppossing this takeover among pentacostals by spurious heretical teachers today?

 

[Tom Butler]

When one is deceived and believes error, discernment also goes out the window.

 

[DHK]

Speaking fromthe viewpoint of someone who was raised up in the "classical" pentacostal doctrines of the Assemblies of God...

Why is there such a lack of rightly deciding what is false/fake/bogus/ and demonic in modern day pentacostal Charismatic Churches?

Because most Charismatics have put aside the Word of God as their authority, and have put their faith in their experiences instead. The canon of Scripture was closed by the end of the first century or shortly after that. After the canon of Scripture was closed there was no more Scripture to be added. That is what makes the Book of Mormon bogus, as well as the writings of Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, and all the decrees of the various Popes. None of them are inspired works. Only the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Its words alone are inspired.

Nowadays, among Charismatic circles, we often hear such expressions as: "The Lord said to me..." "I have a word from the Lord..." "I had a vision and the Lord spoke to me..."
These experiences are put on equal or greater par than Scripture, so that Scripture becomes meaningless. Scripture is also allegorized to fit it into their dreams. It becomes meaningless in this way also, because in spiritualizing the Bible you can make it say anything you want it to say.

Not saying are some fine teachers and pastors in those groups, just that it appears to have been "hi jacked" by word of faith, fake faith healers, prosperity teachers etc...

There are no faith healers today. If there were they would be able to walk up and down the corridors of any given hospital and heal all in the hospital, but I have never seen any "faith healer" take that challenge. The apostles never discriminated against those that came to them. They healed all that came to them.

There is no such thing as a prosperity gospel in the Bible.
There is no such thing as the gift of miracles today. Show me one.
There is no such thing as the gift of tongues today. Demonstrate where a man can speak with understanding in a "known" language that he has never encountered before, never studied before. It is not gibberish, but an actual language. If you went among the American aboriginals, the Crees, would God give you the ability to suddenly speak Cree?
--The Charismatics claim these gifts; but they are fake. They are out to deceive the people and take their money. Here is what the Bible says:

Peter speaking of false teachers says:
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (2 Peter 2:2-3)

Where in the Bible are '5 fold" offices still present?
Know there are teachers/pastors/evangelist, where are there modern day prophet/apostles allowed for?

How come a majority of these "teachers/preachers/prophets" say and teach totally opposite word of God?

There are teachers, pastors and evangelists today.
There were twelve apostles. The Apostolic Age was over at the end of the first century at which time the sign gifts also ceased.
During the first century there were prophets. Prophets were used in giving forth revelation before the canon was complete. By the end of the first century this office had ended for it was no longer needed. We have the Word of God; we don't need prophets. We have preachers to proclaim the Word; prophets were basically what God used in the OT.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)

This lack of biblical discernment and biblical dishonesty drove me to becoming a Baptist...

Where are those strongly oppossing this takeover among pentacostals by spurious heretical teachers today?

They are among the Baptists, primarily.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've told this story before on the BB, but DHK's post stirred my memory.

One day, my daughter's phone ring. It was one of those word/faith organizations on the line. They were inviting her to send an offering--uh, sow a seed that would return to her many-fold.

"You really believe that, don't you?" my daughter asked.
"We sure do."
"Well," said my daughter, "I tell you what. You send me a thousand dollars. I can use it and God will bless it and multiply it back to you."
"Uh, that's not the way it works."

Click.

 

[JesusFan]

believe that the groups like Assemblies of God are a real Christian demonination like we Baptists, it is just they they tend to follow practice "faulty doctrine"

Majority of those that I met and know hold to:
God is a healer today, not "faith healers"
practice sign gifts of Spirit, but ONLY to confirm, Bible is still ONLY IMFALLIBLE guidance from God, any thing done in church cannot contridict/add to Bible...
Second Coming from pre trib/pre mill viewpoint...

Their are excesses in those circles, but tend to see groups like Word of faith/Modern Apostles/prophets/Faith healers etc as the very extreme and hertical branch of that movement....

Do we in baptist circles see the difference between "classic pentacostal,charasmatic" and these aberrant groups?

First group are true believers, who have just been intrepreting Bible "badly", from the second group that are basically herical and false from get go?

 

[drfuss]

believe that the groups like Assemblies of God are a real Christian demonination like we Baptists, it is just they they tend to follow practice "faulty doctrine"

Majority of those that I met and know hold to:
God is a healer today, not "faith healers"
practice sign gifts of Spirit, but ONLY to confirm, Bible is still ONLY IMFALLIBLE guidance from God, any thing done in church cannot contridict/add to Bible...
Second Coming from pre trib/pre mill viewpoint...

Their are excesses in those circles, but tend to see groups like Word of faith/Modern Apostles/prophets/Faith healers etc as the very extreme and hertical branch of that movement....

Do we in baptist circles see the difference between "classic pentacostal,charasmatic" and these aberrant groups?

First group are true believers, who have just been intrepreting Bible "badly", from the second group that are basically herical and false from get go?

You are right. The Charasmatic preachers you see on TV and radio, are not typical of the main pentecostal denominations. For instance, the AOG is trying to put some distance from the name it/Claim it types. That is not to say that there are not still some in the AOG that buy into the name it/claim it beliefs. Unfortunatly, the fringe elements of the penetocostal movement are the most vocal which leads others to think the fringe elements represents all penetecostal churches.

 

[J.D.]

You are right. The Charasmatic preachers you see on TV and radio, are not typical of the main pentecostal denominations. For instance, the AOG is trying to put some distance from the name it/Claim it types. That is not to say that there are not still some in the AOG that buy into the name it/claim it beliefs. Unfortunatly, the fringe elements of the penetocostal movement are the most vocal which leads others to think the fringe elements represents all penetecostal churches.

One of the best friends I ever had was an AoG member, but he too like most pentecostals I know was riddled with confusion and superstitions.

Sometimes I think that charismania thrives on ignorance, but then there are highly educated people - doctors, lawyers, judges, engineers, you name it - amongst the chaotists.

And then I it must be Satanic deception, but then, how do we explain the Godliness of some pentacostals (in spite of their confusion)?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Speaking fromthe viewpoint of someone who was raised up in the "classical" pentacostal doctrines of the Assemblies of God...

Why is there such a lack of rightly deciding what is false/fake/bogus/ and demonic in modern day pentacostal Charismatic Churches?

Spiritual discernment requires the presence and work of the Holy Spirit. This movement is without the Holy Spirit.

1. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and this is one of the most confused and divided movements on planet earth.

2. The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone to disobey the scriptures and yet this movement openly disobeys the scripture (1 Cor. 14:20-33).

3. This movement has little use for the Scriptures as it is primarily a subjective feeling orientated movement.

 

[billwald]

In which denomination is there great discernment these days?

 

[Dr. Walter]

In which denomination is there great discernment these days?

I don't recall the New Testament talking about "denominations" or granting spiritual discernment unto "denominations." However, there are some denominations as a whole that are obviously without spiritual discernment (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Sacramentarian denominations, etc.) where basic 101 Biblical essentials are rejected, distorted or denied.

Those denominations that oppose essential and elementary truths concerning the nature of God, the gospel of grace, inspiration and final authority of the scriptures for faith and practice, etc, are without spiritual discernment in the most basis areas of Biblical thinking.

 

[JesusFan]

Think that we have to say thought the "Main/classical" Bodies who comprise up modern Pentacostalism are those who are of the evangelical persuasion, its just that there are excesses hertical teachers/teaching within their ranks..

have to seperate out that their are geniune believers and real christian groups within the Pentacostal movement, but there are also heritcal teachers/teachings from Groups like Word of faith/Kingdom Now/jesus Only allowed to flourish, Wheat and tares.....

Are you saying that all of those groups, Churces, are NOT of the Lord, and are Cults/False, or just that they have heritcal doctrines being allows ed to be taught, as I am saying?

 

[DHK]

Think that we have to say thought the "Main/classical" Bodies who comprise up modern Pentacostalism are those who are of the evangelical persuasion, its just that there are excesses hertical teachers/teaching within their ranks..

have to seperate out that their are geniune believers and real christian groups within the Pentacostal movement, but there are also heritcal teachers/teachings from Groups like Word of faith/Kingdom Now/jesus Only allowed to flourish, Wheat and tares.....

Are you saying that all of those groups, Churces, are NOT of the Lord, and are Cults/False, or just that they have heritcal doctrines being allows ed to be taught, as I am saying?

The United Pentecostal, Jesus Only, or Oneness Pentecostal--all names for essential the same doctrinal view point are heretical cults. In fact they are banned from this board because of their views on the trinity.
Concerning salvation they believe that both baptism and tongues are essential for salvation which also makes them heretical. Any Charismatic group which takes such a stand is heretical and preaches another gospel, and Paul says,

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

 

[JesusFan]

Totally agree with you those groups within the "pentacostal Movement" are heritical...
Also believe the Word of Faith, Kindgom Now, "name it claim it" are all heritical...

Are we agreeing than that the "mainline" groups like Assemblies of God, and the Charasmatics within Evangelical circles ARE Christian, just some have taken excesses in practice, and have taken up poor intrepretation of the Bible....?

 

[glfredrick]

Why use the term "today" in the title? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[exscentric]

Read a Charismatic book ONCE and in it the author said that the trouble with the rest of Christianity was that they needed to box up their brains, stick them on a rocket and shoot them to the moon.

I can only surmise that he meant that to be a chairsmatic you had to be brainless :tongue3: His idea, not mine!

 

[JesusFan]

must not have been either Wayne Grudem or Gordon Fee, as both of them have written pretty "heady" stuff from a view point of there being "some truth" with Pentacostal movement....

At least as there being biblical eveidence for at least possibility for God being aloowed to function to a degree within non cession means...

 

[Eric B]

I liked in Michael Horton's Christless Christianity, where among other things, he points out modern Christianity has created "the impression that God has set up everything for our victory, but it is actually up to us to plug into the power source and create our blessings by following the proper principles and procedures", using "God or the divine as something akin to an energy source", we "access" or "connect with" or "tap into"; thus "using God like electricity...like a mighty river, the Spirit can be harnessed by our spiritual technology". (p.83, 178-9)

This is something I always noticed, and was always troubled by for some reason, and I'm surprised to see someone else address it. He was talking initially about Osteen and the prosperity preachers, but really the book (like his others) is really addressing all evangelicals, and you can see the same tendencies in the ways we all often treat our "relationship with God".

Anyway, charismatics (who are the biggest influence in my area) are the biggest purveyors of these methods, and the above describes it perfectly.
It ends up impossible to determine any kind of standards, because it is all about what "the spirit" tells us. If you don't believe so, then it is up to you to "try it" by "praying for God to show you". (They'll even appeal to scriptures like Psalms 34:8 with this). And don't dare question what "the spirit" tells someone else. So you can't challenge it, just cultivate your own spiritual life. That's probably why the movement at large went from just tongues, to healing, to heath & wealth, to laughing and barking in the first place.
It's totally individualistic, as Horton nicely points out. (Though Horton's alternative is the opposite extreme of a purely "external" focus with a return to "high church" principles such as the "sacraments" as "means of grace" (p62, 219), and institutional church authority).

 

[glfredrick]

must not have been either Wayne Grudem or Gordon Fee, as both of them have written pretty "heady" stuff from a view point of there being "some truth" with Pentacostal movement....

At least as there being biblical eveidence for at least possibility for God being aloowed to function to a degree within non cession means...

It is rare that there is not some semblance of truth within almost every work, no matter how far astray from the Word it ends up, ultimately.

A completely fabricated doctrine with no shadow of true truth would be dismissed out of hand. It takes a shadow of truth to make the rest palatable, hence the term "counterfeit." By way of example, counterfeit money works because it mimics the truth and contains some sense of truth, i.e., it is as exact a duplicate as the maker can make it -- yet it is not authentic. It can be on the "true" paper, it can use "true" plates for printing, etc., but it is not ultimately "true" because it is not authorized and recognized as the authentic item.

 

[rbell]

Because most Charismatics have put aside the Word of God as their authority, and have put their faith in their experiences instead.

Well said.

When one evaluates "how God moved today" based upon the outpouring of emotion and emotional response, two things are inevitable:

1. You are forced into a "can you top this?" mentality--which will always lead to frustration; and

2. In pursuit of #1, there will be an inevitable "taking a shortcut" to get there. Usually, theological fidelity will take a hit.



Just MHO...but not a completely uninformed one. MY grandfather was an AoG minister, and many of my extended family still attend AoG churches.

Like I say...your mileage may vary.

 

[Brian30755]

I think this is like asking "Why is there such a lack of true worship in Baptist churches today?" You are lumping all Pentecostal / Charismatic / Church of God / Assemblies of God churches together. Go visit a few. You'll see that they are not all the "devils" that you make them out to be.