1 John 5:16 supports the non-Calvinist view. What is the sin that leads to death? Only one, rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit in the birth, life, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus. He that does not believe is condemned already. What are we not to pray for? The man? Nope. We are not to pray that God would forgive this sin and allow a non-believer into heaven, but we can pray that God would use us to help the man change his mind, and accept the gospel for we are to pray for the lost such as Paul's prayer of Romans 10:1. God's desire is for all men to be saved so we are to pray in the will of God that all men will be saved according to God's purpose, saved in a way that glorifies God, which is by their autonomous response to message of the Gospel brought by word and example of Spirit led believers bringing mercy to the lost. We are ambassadors of Christ and we have the ministry of reconciliation. We are to pray for more workers because the harvest is plentiful.
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Praying for the Lost
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Osage Bluestem
Member
The calvinist view is to pray for all people and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth preaching it boldly to every single person who can hear it.
Tom Butler
New Member
Let's see, we are to pray for God to use us to help a lost man change his mind and accept the gospel.
My question is why pray this prayer, if God is helpless to answer it unless a man gives his permission? I may desire earnestly the salvation of a lost loved one. God may desire the same thing. But neither of us can do anything about it. Both God and I are helpless before the human will. I can pray to God from now to kingdom come and God is still unable to answer my prayer.
So what can we pray for? We can pray that the Holy Spirit will open blinded eyes and reveal the truth. We can pray that God will convict of sin. We can pray that God will give a heart of flesh to offset the heart of stone; We can pray that the Holy Spirit will draw the lost man. We may pray that God will grant him repentance (Acts 11:18). We can pray that God will give them saving faith (Phil 1:29)
If my loved one's salvation is dependent on his will, I am ready to pray that God will make him willing. I am ready to pray that God will violate his free will.
Thus for your side or the other.. the question is .. why pray at all if it does nothing, much less as an appeal to God?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
My dear friend! You know the answer--God ordains the end as well as the means.
Blessings,
The Archangel
PS. I hope you are doing well!
I do know brother.. I just find the arguements against why one side (or the other) shouldn't pray because.. such-and-such, silly and ridiculous -at best-.
Thus my statement.. why should either side pray at all (Paraphrased of course)
I am doing well, though frustrated at times.
And you?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I feel your frustration...which is to say I've had my recent frustrations too. It has been a hard few weeks to be a pastor. By God's grace it hasn't been more difficult.
Blessings,
The Archangel
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death.
I don't understand how this has anything to do with Calvinism OR Arminianism. This is referring to "brother" - one who is already saved.
I don't understand how this has anything to do with Calvinism OR Arminianism. This is referring to "brother" - one who is already saved.
glfredrick
New Member
Every verse of the Bible supports the Reformed view. Sheesh... It is not as if the Reformed persons cross out the passages they disagree with. Those holding a Reformed perspective CANNOT disagree with ANY passage of Scripture.
The sooner you discover that ALL the Word of God is applicable, the sooner you start on the track of a biblically sound theology that encompasses EVERY passage of the Word of God instead of trying to pick apart one particular theology by implying that some of the Word does not apply to that particular view.
Like Ann said. :thumbs:
glfredrick
New Member
It is not my "opinion." It is fact. ANY theology that does not deal with EVERY verse of Scripture is not of God.
Are you saying your opinions are fact, or you hold to immutable truth, or a finite human can have this ability?
glfredrick
New Member
Neither, but nice try...
I'm saying that ANY theology that does not encompass EVERY SINGLE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE is no theology at all. THAT is fact.
OK...so the reformed "view" is fact...immutable truth? THAT is what was stated as being your opinion to which you stated, "It is not my opinion, It is a fact"
Reply to Tom Butler
I think your view is wrong, Tom. We are to cultivate, to plant and to water. Yes God causes the increase, but He uses believers to spread the gospel with power and conviction.
Lots of us, when making a difficult decision, consider both options. By cultivating, planting and watering, we can help make the grass greener on the side of life eternal rather than on the side of eternal darkness.
I see where you again misrepresented my view, I did not say for God to overrule with Irresistible grace the will of the lost, I prayed for God to use me, whether or not my ministry bears fruit in the manner I desire.
What does it mean for God to "grant repentance." Does it mean compel it through irresistible grace? Of course not. It means salvation is not only for the Jews, Christ has torn down the wall, and now under the New Covenant, God has granted repentance to life for the Gentiles. He paid the ransom for all, and God desires that all come to the Truth.
What does it mean for God to grant not only to believe but to suffer for Christ's sake? (Philippians 1:29) God "granted" Christ and the Good News for whoever to believe in Him and stand firm in the faith even to suffer for His sake. To say this verse says God gave them "saving faith" is to utterly rewrite the verse according to your doctrine.
I think your view is wrong, Tom. We are to cultivate, to plant and to water. Yes God causes the increase, but He uses believers to spread the gospel with power and conviction.
Lots of us, when making a difficult decision, consider both options. By cultivating, planting and watering, we can help make the grass greener on the side of life eternal rather than on the side of eternal darkness.
I see where you again misrepresented my view, I did not say for God to overrule with Irresistible grace the will of the lost, I prayed for God to use me, whether or not my ministry bears fruit in the manner I desire.
What does it mean for God to "grant repentance." Does it mean compel it through irresistible grace? Of course not. It means salvation is not only for the Jews, Christ has torn down the wall, and now under the New Covenant, God has granted repentance to life for the Gentiles. He paid the ransom for all, and God desires that all come to the Truth.
What does it mean for God to grant not only to believe but to suffer for Christ's sake? (Philippians 1:29) God "granted" Christ and the Good News for whoever to believe in Him and stand firm in the faith even to suffer for His sake. To say this verse says God gave them "saving faith" is to utterly rewrite the verse according to your doctrine.
What is the point in your prayer?
Do you not believe that God is doing all that he can to save EVERYONE. If you pray will God do more than he is already doing? If so, doesn't that mean that he is not trying to save all men with the exact same exertion of effort? Your prayer will cause God to try harder to save some than others, will it not?
Will God choose to draw one more than another based on your prayer?
The Calvinist believes God CAN save ANYONE. The Calvinist does not believe that the stubborn will of man is ANY obstacle whatsoever to God.
So when we pray, "Oh merciful and Almighty God, please save my neighbor" we know that our God can overcome his will and save him without effort.
We also believe we serve a prayer hearing and a prayer answering God who DELIGHTS to answer the prayers of his children.
Your belief system says God is trying his best to save everybody and failing miserably and that he has made it so that he will not overcome the stubborn will of man. Therefore, your prayer does not change anything. Unless in your prayer you can convince God to do what you do not believe God would ever do, which is overcome the "free will" of man to save him- then you are wasting your time praying.
Is this not accurate?
If not- where am I off?
glfredrick
New Member
That is not what I said.
I'll say it R E A L L Y S L O W L Y so you can get it...
I said that ANY theology that cannot encompass ALL (every, each, the entirety, cover-to-cover, alpha to omega, Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, or any other expression that takes into account the complete Bible, Word of God, etc.) of the Bible is NO theology of God.
I am SO tired of attacks against the Reformed theology that (wrongly) assume that persons holding that theology must in some sense "dismiss" or "ignore" some text of Scripture. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE -- yet it is the presupposition carried forward by the OP in this thread.
I'm sure that you will still not get it... Seems to be your style.
Tom Butler
New Member
I agree. But it is empowered by the Holy Spirit, not by our own power.
The OP question deals with praying for God to save someone. You are making this a human decision.
Fair enough. To pray for God to use us as his instruments is a good thing to do. But, if I ask God to touch the heart of a lost man, am I not asking God to do something to something to him to make him willing?
And if I ask God to save someone, what has to happen for God to do that?
I read those verses in their simplest form. God grants repentance. God gives faith.
We'll just have to disagree on their application.
"Every verse of the Bible supports the Reformed view. Sheesh... It is not as if the Reformed persons cross out the passages they disagree with. Those holding a Reformed perspective CANNOT disagree with ANY passage of Scripture."
On the other side of the street, I would say that Reformed Theology (code for T, U, L and I of the Tulip) are not actually supported by any verse of the Bible. What the Reformed thinkers have done is trash the author's intended message and pour in their own. It is a view supported not by what the Bible actually says, but by conjecture concerning what it does not say. Thus "granting repentance" becomes "Irresistible Grace." When we sin we are not seeking God gets twisted into everyone who sins, sins all the time and thus never seeks God. God sets before us the choice of life or death is altered to mean God sets before us only one side of choice, life for some and death for others. God desiring all men to be saved becomes God desires all kinds of men to be saved. God giving grace to the humble becomes God gives grace to some men compelling them to be humble. On and on it goes.
On the other side of the street, I would say that Reformed Theology (code for T, U, L and I of the Tulip) are not actually supported by any verse of the Bible. What the Reformed thinkers have done is trash the author's intended message and pour in their own. It is a view supported not by what the Bible actually says, but by conjecture concerning what it does not say. Thus "granting repentance" becomes "Irresistible Grace." When we sin we are not seeking God gets twisted into everyone who sins, sins all the time and thus never seeks God. God sets before us the choice of life or death is altered to mean God sets before us only one side of choice, life for some and death for others. God desiring all men to be saved becomes God desires all kinds of men to be saved. God giving grace to the humble becomes God gives grace to some men compelling them to be humble. On and on it goes.