Then you do deny that God has always known all there ever has been to ever know- right?
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Can God originate a thought?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Then you do deny that God has always known all there ever has been to ever know- right?
Robert Snow
New Member
Maybe it's just beyond our ability to understand at all.
convicted1
Guest
Here is something to think about concerning this subject:
Rom. 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Matt. 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
It really doen't matter what we think concerning this matter of God originating a new thought, because none of us can ever know God's mind. I am in the camp that He already knows all things, and can't believe that He can know anything "new", because He already knows ALL THINGS"!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Rom. 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Matt. 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
It really doen't matter what we think concerning this matter of God originating a new thought, because none of us can ever know God's mind. I am in the camp that He already knows all things, and can't believe that He can know anything "new", because He already knows ALL THINGS"!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
So God isn't all knowing? Are you saying that you are denying the omniscience of God? Just want to clarify.
What does the word search mean?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
In Strongs, this word "search" is defined as;
1) to search, search for, search out, examine, investigate
a) (Qal)
1) to search (for)
2) to search through, explore
3) to examine thoroughly
b) (Niphal)
1) to be searched out, be found out, be ascertained, be examined
c) (Piel) to search out, seek out
So, I ask again, why would God need to search for something he already knows? It is not I who said God searches, it is God himself who says he searches. I believe what God said. Do you?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
As some of the others have said, I don't speculate on matters that are not clearly revealed. Some texts indicate God knows all, while others indicate he "searches" or "tests" men's hearts, or reacts, relents and responds within time and creation. I accept both as truth in the same manner I accept the trinity (3 but 1). I'm ok with mystery and faith in this regard.
I refuse to draw hard and fast conclusions about such mysteries, such as "if God knew it before creating it then he MUST have determined it to be." The bible doesn't teach that logical conclusion, it is just one we have invented by our own finite reasoning and speculation. The bible CLEARLY reveals God is holy and completely separate from evil and doesn't even tempt men to evil. To even suggest that He originated the intent of the tempter, determined the temptation and even decreed that the sinner would commit the sin just because finite human logic "demands" it extremely short sighted in my view.
Please answer my question. Do you believe God knows everything or do you deny the omniscience of God?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I think most are fine with the concept of God knowing all, but when those asking the question fail to make any real distinction between divine foreknowledge and divine predetermination, it makes it difficult to answer because the words mean two different things to us.
Does Christ know the day and hour of His return, or do you deny the omniscience of God?
Well, I would say that in either of those, God still knows everything. Whether is't only because he knows or if it is because He determines, He still knows all.
Christ the human here on earth didn't. (Phil 2:8-9)
God does.....so, does God know everything?
There are differences between Jesus as God and Jesus as man.
he grew and became strong, Luke 2:40
increased in stature, Luke 2:52
was about 30 years old, Luke 3:23
was weary, John 4:6
was thirsty,John 19:28
was hungry, Matt. 4:2
was crucified, 1 Cor. 2:8
God is eternal. God is all powerful. How can God die or "increase in stature" How can God become strong? He can't. Jesus as human did these things.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
But why even speak of his foreknowing something in a world where he has predetermined everything?
Refer back to the OP. Does God foreknows his thoughts before he originally thinks them? Explain the origin of anything if all things are eternally existent in the mind of God. Some things are just beyond our minds.
There are two way that things are preordained. One is God decrees. These are the things like "let there be light," Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. These are the things that came from God. Other things are where he has allowed something to happen. For instance evil. While God is not the author of evil like he is light, he has ordained that it be by allowing it. So God forknowing something could be used as expressive language. His point is that he knows it and not that he determined it.
Oh, we don't understand that. It could be said that his thoughts don't have an origin and are eternal just like him. That would be my answer.
This is a difficult question for me, I agree much with what Skan said in post #26, there is much scripture that shows God knows everything, at the same time there is scripture that seems to show that in some instances God knows things in time as he sees them such as Gen 22:12 and Gen 18:21. In fact, there are a surprising number of verses that suggest this. A very interesting verse is Jer 2:34:
Jer 2:34 Also in thy skirts is FOUND the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not FOUND it by SECRET SEARCH, but upon all these.
There are numerous verses like this that say God "found" something. This means to discover. What is significant about this verse is that God is referring to the Jews sacrificing their children which 3 times in Jeremiah God says he did not command, neither did this sin come into his mind or heart.
At the same time we know that God declares the end from the beginning. All prophecy shows that God knows things that will take place before they actually happen.
So, there is much scripture to support both positions, and I cannot quite understand this.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
If you followed my discussions with Luke, which I didn't expect you of you (that was a lot of material), you would see that I support this view. The problem many of your persuasion have about this perspective is in regard to God's "allowing" or "permitting" of things. This suggests (according to them) that God is informed by foreseeing certain events that will happen sometime in the future but permits them to occur. This is not acceptable in their view because God can't be "informed" but something other than himself because it suggests he didn't know of it prior to his foreseeing of it occurring and his permitting of it to occur. So, they conclude (wrongly IMO) that God must have predetermined everything...after all, "if he knew it before creating it he must have determined it to be," they say. What do you think?
And I'm fine with that if you are ok with the idea that God is informed by another. Why? Because if God's thoughts are eternally existent then the intent of Jeffery Dahmer to rape, murder and eat a child eternally existed and thus originated in the mind of God, instead of originating in the mind of Dahmer and then informing God through his foreknowledge of that event. Make sense? At least that is the finite logic of the matter.
And I'm fine with that if you are ok with the idea that God is informed by another. Why? Because if God's thoughts are eternally existent then the intent of Jeffery Dahmer to rape, murder and eat a child eternally existed and thus originated in the mind of God, instead of originating in the mind of Dahmer and then informing God through his foreknowledge of that event. Make sense? At least that is the finite logic of the matter.[/QUOTE]
Excellent line of reasoning Skan, glad I kept following this thread. Thanks.
Excellent line of reasoning Skan, glad I kept following this thread. Thanks.
Its not that simple. You cannot separate His natures. This is one of the errors in the early church. Its something our minds cannot comprehend like the Trinity, God always having existed and how an omniscient being can change His mind.
I understand and thanks for you honesty. For me personally, I look at it more of expressive language. In a sense God "found" it but in reality He already knew it. To me, it's how God relates to us. I take this view because the other view would have God learning something and would of course deny his omniscience. I cannot explain how God could know everything and yet learn something.
Again, thanks for your honest reply. We will never understand the fullness of God.
Per my examples I explained how Jesus didn't know something so it is really that simple. God is all powerful, yet Jesus grew up and became stronger. Was Jesus God? Of course. That's why I cited the Philippians passage.
Im glad you have the hypostatic union all figured out...I'll stick to the tension found in Scripture as viewed through our finitness.
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