Losing Salvation?

[MamaCW]

I'm looking forward to reading the responses on this thread.
A loved one and I recently had a discussion involving salvation. And to be honest with you, I got a little frustrated at his skepticism, but then again. A point that I never really thought about came up and I did not know how to respond to such because I could not see how something could be possible, even though I'm sure it is...Ive just never encountered it, or experienced it the way he tried to illustrate.

So he doesnt believe in onced saved always saved. (i'm going to make this long story short with just key points)..He doesn't see how "God can force someone to stay saved if that person no longer wants to". The example given was someone who is saved...sincerely asking Jesus into his heart... and then later on down the line, turns his back on Jesus and becomes atheist...He believes a person can lose their salvation

I personally do not see how someone can truly believe..and then suddenly not believe..although I'm sure somehow outside of my realm of understanding, it is possible.

My explanations included,
if salvation was able to be lost then Jesus died in vain,
Even when you stray or turn away, the Lord will not give up on your and will bring you back him (in which his response is..what if you die before He brings you back to him)..
Romans 8:38 states that nothing can take the love of God away from you
I used the example of Peter, how he went from loving the Lord, to rejecting that he knew him 3 times

But anyway, how would you respond to someone who says that? I've never thought about someone becoming atheists after salvation (i've always seen situations where its the other way around)..

If you have biblical support, for either stand, I'd love to read it

 

[freeatlast]

First off many people "sincerely asking Jesus into his heart" and never get saved. Yes they are sincere in the asking Him to save them and come in, but they are not sincere in their repentance so He never comes. They sincerely want the benefit of salvation but do not sincerely want the Lordship of the one saving them so they remain lost.

Scripture says this. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

True believers remain. If a person makes a claim that they are saved and "leave the faith" they were never saved. We talk about knowing the Lord. It is impossible to know someone and then claim they are not real. The scenario you were confronted with is an impossibility for a true believer.

 

[MamaCW]

Scripture says this. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

True believers remain. If a person makes a claim that they are saved and "leave the faith" they were never saved. We talk about knowing the Lord. It is impossible to know someone and then claim they are not real. The scenario you were confronted with is an impossibility for a true believer.

THANK YOU! That makes perfect sense, and thank you for posting that scripture..

 

[Don]

I'm looking forward to reading the responses on this thread.
A loved one and I recently had a discussion involving salvation. And to be honest with you, I got a little frustrated at his skepticism, but then again. A point that I never really thought about came up and I did not know how to respond to such because I could not see how something could be possible, even though I'm sure it is...Ive just never encountered it, or experienced it the way he tried to illustrate.

So he doesnt believe in onced saved always saved. (i'm going to make this long story short with just key points)..He doesn't see how "God can force someone to stay saved if that person no longer wants to". The example given was someone who is saved...sincerely asking Jesus into his heart... and then later on down the line, turns his back on Jesus and becomes atheist...He believes a person can lose their salvation

I personally do not see how someone can truly believe..and then suddenly not believe..although I'm sure somehow outside of my realm of understanding, it is possible.

My explanations included,
if salvation was able to be lost then Jesus died in vain,
Even when you stray or turn away, the Lord will not give up on your and will bring you back him (in which his response is..what if you die before He brings you back to him)..
Romans 8:38 states that nothing can take the love of God away from you
I used the example of Peter, how he went from loving the Lord, to rejecting that he knew him 3 times

But anyway, how would you respond to someone who says that? I've never thought about someone becoming atheists after salvation (i've always seen situations where its the other way around)..

If you have biblical support, for either stand, I'd love to read it

There are many here who will provide better answers...but I'll give it a shot.

Think about the parable of the sowing of the seeds. There's one type of seed that hear the word, but have no root (Matthew 13:21). These are the type of people that we usually think of as "losing salvation." However, because they have no actual root, they don't "stick with it."

Another way to think about it is with Hebrews 10:39; there is a distinction made between those who believe, and those who believe to the saving of their soul.

And that is supported by James 2, where we're told that even the devils believe and tremble...but we all know that they have no hope of salvation.

So my response to your loved one is the question: Is he talking about believing in God, or believing to the saving of the soul?

 

[MamaCW]

There are many here who will provide better answers...but I'll give it a shot.

Think about the parable of the sowing of the seeds. There's one type of seed that hear the word, but have no root (Matthew 13:21). These are the type of people that we usually think of as "losing salvation." However, because they have no actual root, they don't "stick with it."

Another way to think about it is with Hebrews 10:39; there is a distinction made between those who believe, and those who believe to the saving of their soul.

And that is supported by James 2, where we're told that even the devils believe and tremble...but we all know that they have no hope of salvation.

So my response to your loved one is the question: Is he talking about believing in God, or believing to the saving of the soul?

Also good bible verses.. He is talking about believing to the saving of the soul...i think...

So basically the answer would be that they were probably never saved...now that makes me wonder..because of the verse in Hebrews that you posted:

it says in verse 38 of Hebrews 10

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

What would that say for those who do accept Jesus into their life.. try to live a godly life ..but somehow get sucked back into the world.. would this verse be saying that He's not pleased with that person, or that he wants nothing to do with that person

 

[menageriekeeper]

Free at Last has given you a good answer, but there is more you should consider.

The Bible speaks of those who came into the Church as believers (true believers) and then got caught up into sin. (Atheism/disbelief is a sin btw) About those 1 Corinthians 5:5 says 'to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus'.

 

[freeatlast]

Also good bible verses.. He is talking about believing to the saving of the soul...i think...

So basically the answer would be that they were probably never saved...now that makes me wonder..because of the verse in Hebrews that you posted:

it says in verse 38 of Hebrews 10

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

What would that say for those who do accept Jesus into their life.. try to live a godly life ..but somehow get sucked back into the world.. would this verse be saying that He's not pleased with that person, or that he wants nothing to do with that person

The Hebrew passage is saying neither. Hebrews is a book that can only be understood properly if Leviticus is understood. It is a book to the Jews although it can apply to us today if understood. They had heard the message and the book is full of warnings to them. There are basically three types of Jews being dealt with.
1) is a person who had heard the gospel and believed it but had not come all the way to applying it to their life. They are warned to come all the way less if they go back now they can never come as they can never be renewed again to repentance.
2) the second type is a person who is not really convinced so the writer is using OT teaching to convince them that Jesus is the Christ.
3) the third type is a person on the fence who has heard, but has questions and the writer is trying to bring them to see more clearly.

In the passage you referred to it has two parts. First it says this;
Now the just shall live by faith:
This is explaining that those who are really saved live by faith and not works which the Jew was caught up in.

The second part says this:
but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

He is warning those who hear if they draw back to works instead of coming to faith, God will have no pleasure in them, they will remain lost. Not that they got saved and drew back, but they drew back from the teaching of faith.

 

[MamaCW]

Again,
Thank you Freeatlast lol. I think you're going to be my new best friend haha.

btw.. I was about to post that I took a look at that gerald285 site you have in your signature, and the post "backslidden or lost"kind of fits into this conversation!

is that you're website or a site you endorse?

 

[freeatlast]

Free at Last has given you a good answer, but there is more you should consider.

The Bible speaks of those who came into the Church as believers (true believers) and then got caught up into sin. (Atheism/disbelief is a sin btw) About those 1 Corinthians 5:5 says 'to turn such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus'.

it is impossible to be a atheist Christian. As to the person mentioned in 1Cor 5 this person was into a single sin, not caught up in the practice of sinning. The thing is he did not depart from the church and claim to turn against the Lord. Another problem was that the church had not dealt with this person. Thye were puffed up about it. Paul tells them how to handle this sin and it is assumed that they did. if he had been practicing sin he would not have been saved.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[freeatlast]

Again,
Thank you Freeatlast lol. I think you're going to be my new best friend haha.

btw.. I was about to post that I took a look at that gerald285 site you have in your signature, and the post "backslidden or lost"kind of fits into this conversation!

is that you're website or a site you endorse?

it is my web site.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Can someone who is born of the spirit of God "spirit of truth" start to believe a philosophy contrary? Well read the words of the master teacher.....John 10:5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers. Do the math! :wavey:

 

[Zenas]

I'm looking forward to reading the responses on this thread.

* * * *

I've never thought about someone becoming atheists after salvation (i've always seen situations where its the other way around)..

If you have biblical support, for either stand, I'd love to read it

Of course a Christian can lose his salvation, unless you think the Bible lies about such things.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Notice that in every one of these instances there is a falling. You can’t fall from a position unless you are already holding that position.

Even more telling is the parable of the master who forgave his servant in Matthew 18, and then revoked his grace from that servant when he wouldn’t forgive his own servant for a lesser amount. Would we say our Lord didn’t know what He was talking about? I’m afraid we are watching a lot of souls slip away to Hell as their eternal destination because we tend to say these people may be backsliding but they can’t be permanently lost. Therefore, we don’t devote the effort to rescuing them that we should. James 5:19-20. I realize eternal security is a doctrine that is as seared into the Baptist conscience as much as any other but it is a false doctrine nonetheless.

 

[freeatlast]

Of course a Christian can lose his salvation, unless you think the Bible lies about such things.

Notice that in every one of these instances there is a falling. You can’t fall from a position unless you are already holding that position.

Even more telling is the parable of the master who forgave his servant in Matthew 18, and then revoked his grace from that servant when he wouldn’t forgive his own servant for a lesser amount. Would we say our Lord didn’t know what He was talking about? I’m afraid we are watching a lot of souls slip away to Hell as their eternal destination because we tend to say these people may be backsliding but they can’t be permanently lost. Therefore, we don’t devote the effort to rescuing them that we should. James 5:19-20. I realize eternal security is a doctrine that is as seared into the Baptist conscience as much as any other but it is a false doctrine nonetheless.

Zenas tell us exactly what a Christian has to do to lose their salvation. Spell it out step by step.

 

[MamaCW]

great site!

 

[Zenas]

Think about the parable of the sowing of the seeds. There's one type of seed that hear the word, but have no root (Matthew 13:21). These are the type of people that we usually think of as "losing salvation." However, because they have no actual root, they don't "stick with it."

If they don’t stick with it, it means they were once “with it” but not any more. The parable of the sower of the seeds is a perfect example of those who come into the faith, i.e., are saved, and then fall away. Matthew 13:21 says, “When affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.” You can't fall away unless you have already been there.

Likewise, the one on whom seed was sown among thorns eventually becomes unfruitful. How can you become unfruitful unless you have at one time borne fruit?

 

[freeatlast]

If they don’t stick with it, it means they were once “with it” but not any more. The parable of the sower of the seeds is a perfect example of those who come into the faith, i.e., are saved, and then fall away. Matthew 13:21 says, “When affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.” You can't fall away unless you have already been there.

Likewise, the one on whom seed was sown among thorns eventually becomes unfruitful. How can you become unfruitful unless you have at one time borne fruit?

In those matt passages it is talking about those who make the claim, not those who are saved. A hog thta is washed and in a ribbon will still rush to the mire if he sees one. And a dog that has had its coat done by a beautician will turn and lick his own vomit. The reason is that they have not been changed inside, born again. They have had the outside cleaned and then they fall back into their true nature. The same with anyone who is a professing Christian and not a possessing one. A Christian cannot turn back as they are kept.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
The new birth makes it impossible for a believer to return to sinning. The saved do not stick with it to remain saved, but because they are saved they will stick with it because they are kept by the new birth and the Seed of God.

 

[Zenas]

In the passage you referred to it has two parts.

Yes, two parts connected by the conjunction “but”. This means both parts are talking about the same group of people. In fact, the NASB uses the conjuction "and", making it even more clear.

First it says this;
Now the just shall live by faith:
This is explaining that those who are really saved live by faith and not works which the Jew was caught up in.

Yes, precisely.

The second part says this:
but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

He is warning those who hear if they draw back to works instead of coming to faith, God will have no pleasure in them, they will remain lost. Not that they got saved and drew back, but they drew back from the teaching of faith.

“Any man” refers any man who is a part of the group of saved referred to in the first part. The first part refers to the saved, not just those who hear the gospel and draw back from it, but those who hear it and receive it and become saved. Therefore, the verse illustrates one of the saved drawing back and God takes no pleasure in him.

Verse 39 clarifies this by saying that “we” (the saved) are not of those (the ones illustrated in V. 28) who shrink back to destruction. In other words, the writer is distinguishing himself and other Christians from those Christians who fall back into destruction.

 

[Don]

If they don’t stick with it, it means they were once “with it” but not any more. The parable of the sower of the seeds is a perfect example of those who come into the faith, i.e., are saved, and then fall away. Matthew 13:21 says, “When affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.” You can't fall away unless you have already been there.

Likewise, the one on whom seed was sown among thorns eventually becomes unfruitful. How can you become unfruitful unless you have at one time borne fruit?

Same as the devils.

You can believe; you can do good works; but have you believed to the saving of your soul?

How can you become unfruitful? Doesn't scripture tell us that there will be those who do many miracles, and lead people to believe that they are of God, only to find out they are wolves in sheep's clothing?

Scripture seems very clear to me: Just as the devils believe and tremble, there are those that believe and tremble. This doesn't mean they're saved, only that they have made a profession of some sort. In the end, how do we tell? By the fruit they bear (the seed that produced a hundredfold).

 

[Zenas]

Zenas tell us exactly what a Christian has to do to lose their salvation. Spell it out step by step.

At least two different ways.

1. By declaring that, although he once was a believer, he no longer believes in Christ and will no longer follow Him, i.e. by a renunciation of his membership in the Kingdom.

2. By persisting in a life of continuing and unforgiven sin. I absolutely reject the idea that when a person is saved all sins are forgiven--past, present and future.

 

[Zenas]

In those matt passages it is talking about those who make the claim, not those who are saved.

Nope, I'm afraid not. You are ignoring the plain language of scripture in order to make it accommodate your soteriology.