Losing Salvation?

[Zenas]

We're not talking about a matter of time; we're talking about a matter of believing versus saving faith. And thus, why I pointed out the difference between believing, and believing to the saving of the soul.

Are you suggesting that the people represented in this parable had some kind of false belief, like the demons of James 2:19 or the wolves of Matthew 7:15? If so, my friend, you are simply wrong. These people had an immature faith that had not yet taken root and they were saved just as surely as a little child who just received Christ into his or her life is saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am sure there has been a lot of good replies. I will share what I said to a young lady years ago, after I was first born of God, who asked me if I thought I could lose my salvation.

"I didn't do anything to get into this, what makes you think I can do anything to get out of it?"

My answer still stands.

I have a similar testimony RB. In fact I fought it, but when He comes after you trust me He's bringing you out of your darkness, even if you were like me kickin & screaming. Then that sense of Holy Spirit peace comes...that which defies all understanding. The grace of God saved me in spite of myself. We receive grace despite ourselves. All of God.

 

[freeatlast]

At least two different ways.

1. By declaring that, although he once was a believer, he no longer believes in Christ and will no longer follow Him, i.e. by a renunciation of his membership in the Kingdom.

2. By persisting in a life of continuing and unforgiven sin. I absolutely reject the idea that when a person is saved all sins are forgiven--past, present and future.

Zenas YOU are a works Salvationist. No matter how you cut it, by your standards the person cannot get to heaven unless they achieve. You may reject scripture for your desire of works, but be careful as God rejects works salvationists.This is what is true, not your teachings;

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If they leave they were never saved.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

Believers do not practice sin so you have a false gospel and fall under the curse in Gal. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal. 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Don]

Are you suggesting that the people represented in this parable had some kind of false belief, like the demons of James 2:19 or the wolves of Matthew 7:15? If so, my friend, you are simply wrong. These people had an immature faith that had not yet taken root and they were saved just as surely as a little child who just received Christ into his or her life is saved.

My friend, I say the same thing back to you: You're wrong. I disagree with your interpretation of the parable.

At this point, not sure what you could say, or what I could say, that would change the mind of either of us.

 

[righteousdude2]

You're Welcome, and . . .

Righteousdude2-Thanks for that. You are an encouragement.

. . . with that encouragement, let the praise go to the Father! :godisgood:

 

[Zenas]

you liken Doctrine of Assurance & Regeneration to an of this world Insurance Policy?!? Again back to my original question....What is it's true value if you can loose your salvation? your answer is "It's all about me, dependent on me.....then that means that if its all dependent on ME then I am in all the uncertainty that I was before.

Of course that is why so many turn to the RC's....where you hand it over and the Church looks after it for you. It is because you cannot possibly do it for yourself. Now the Roman Catholic Church does not offer you assurance of salvation but what she does is say you cannot get it but leave it to us & we take care of it for you. And of course you get the bonus of all that characterizes that church. It is interesting Z that you.....well now, I will stop my train of thought here ....but think about it for a bit. In closing I ask you to consider this, Are saved people & Christians, as we all are, because it is "all of the Grace of God" and in spite of us? Something to ponder my brother.

EWF, I figured you would point out the burlesque of comparing God's grace with a life insurance policy and I recognize it is not a perfect analogy. But only because it is difficult to compare the things of God with the concepts of man.

As for your assertion that we are saved in spite of ourselves, I can't go there. I know you have embraced the tenets of Calvinism with nearly as much zeal as some of the die hard Cals on this board. I will refrain from mocking you but I sincerely believe the Calvinist outlook is inconsistent with with God's plan as revealed in scripture.

Without Jesus Christ it would be impossible to be saved. However, despite what you suggest and what Reformed Baptist just suggested above, we have to do something to be saved. If you can be saved by doing nothing, we would all be saved and we could dismiss all our pastors, dissolve all our churches and recall all our missionaries. Or, if God simply saves some people by giving them faith and leaves others to perish, He is indeed a diabolical Machiavellian god. Salvation requires the grace of Jesus Christ and the cooperation of man. Deep down I think you know that.

 

[freeatlast]

. . . When I was born again, I had no doubts that I was His forever. And I base that on the Revelations 13:8 and 21:27. I know that my confession of faith resulted in my name being written in the Lamb's Book, and I have complete confidence that God does not have a bottle of "White Out" or an eraser.

Secondly, Paul tells us in Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5 "For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [ because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]-- " Amplified Bible

The legal act of an adoption is something that can't be undone. I believe that I cannot be un-adopted.

These verses, plus the many other excellent verses and explanations given thus far, is the thing upon which I base my salvation being irrevocable!

As for those who go "Prodigal" the story of the prodigal son is one more Word from the Lord to show that even those who have walked away will return and be eligible for their inheritance. One of my favorite verses on the plan for those who have "fallen away (gone prodigal) is in Daniel 11:35 "And some of those who is wise, prudent, and understanding shall be weakened and fall, [thus, then. The insincere among the people will lose courage and become deserters. It will be a test] to refine, to purify, and to make those among [God's people] white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for the time [God] appointed." Amplified Bible

On a personal note, I can tell you that even though I tried to walk away from God (following my divorce and the loss of the ministry), He never quit on me. I spent approximately 15 years trying to run away from Him, hiding myself in world porn and illicit s@xual relationships, but, there came that "pig trough" moment for me, and I found myself back in church, broken spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially. After a failed attempt at blowing my brains out on a Friday night, that Sunday night service saw me come full circle, and like the father welcoming his prodigal son back with open arms, my Father was at that service and welcomed me back in the fullness of His love. I don't understand it, but, I know He never quit on me, and He has restored ministry, and I'm ttwo months shy of celebrating 32 years of marriage to my wife, who came to Jesus, after we marriedn in 1980.

My complete story is in my book, Prodigal Daze (ISBN 978-1-4141-0272-6), and for anyone who thinks that God does not come after His lost and wayward children, you need to read my testimony.

I have no doubt that His love never changed, after all, that is why He sent His Son to die. My name was never removed from the Lamb's Book, and I never once received legal papers (spiritually speaking) of God revoking my adoption into His family!

I give God the praise for this wild ride through life, and I know He had a purpose, because my testimony has delivered thousands of prodigal children from their walk in darkness.

I hope something I shared can help you with your answer to your friend.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

Praise God that you finally got saved. We all have much to be thankful for.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas YOU are a works Salvationist. No matter how you cut it, by your standards the person cannot get to heaven unless they achieve.

Like I replied to EW&F, you cannot be saved by your works. You must have the grace of Jesus Christ. But you can't be saved without cooperating with and obeying the commands of Christ either. And yes, God does expect us to acheive. Please read the parable of the talents.

You may reject scripture for your desire of works, but be careful as God rejects works salvationists.This is what is true, not your teachings;

I don't desire works. Frankly, your brand of salvation is a lot easier. But our works are what preserves our salvation:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Matthew 7:21.

For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Matthew 16:27.

[T]hose who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. John 5:29.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

And these aren't my teachings, they are the Word of God. I'm sorry if I struck a nerve there, but truth is truth and you should not distort it to fit your ill conceived soteriology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, I figured you would point out the burlesque of comparing God's grace with a life insurance policy and I recognize it is not a perfect analogy. But only because it is difficult to compare the things of God with the concepts of man.

As for your assertion that we are saved in spite of ourselves, I can't go there. I know you have embraced the tenets of Calvinism with nearly as much zeal as some of the die hard Cals on this board. I will refrain from mocking you but I sincerely believe the Calvinist outlook is inconsistent with with God's plan as revealed in scripture.

Without Jesus Christ it would be impossible to be saved. However, despite what you suggest and what Reformed Baptist just suggested above, we have to do something to be saved. If you can be saved by doing nothing, we would all be saved and we could dismiss all our pastors, dissolve all our churches and recall all our missionaries. Or, if God simply saves some people by giving them faith and leaves others to perish, He is indeed a diabolical Machiavellian god. Salvation requires the grace of Jesus Christ and the cooperation of man. Deep down I think you know that.

As you have said in your 1st paragraph, I am committed to Reformed Orthodox Christian Theology because I have both experienced Saving Grace personally & because I do not believe in a diabolical God but a God who loves me & is Sovereign.

As for Calvinism, I am sincerely sorry that you have misjudged us ... I fear that something in your evaluation of us has gone wrong somewhere. If nothing else, we are truly believers of God's complete sovereignty & we put our faith an assurance in Him as our loving creator & Lord of all. Our Calvinism leads us to loving both the Creator & His Creation, to providing Him his due Glory, Praise & Thanksgiving. Our vision of Him is far from perverted & diabolical. You cannot have people like Bunyan, Edwards, Whitfield, Warfield, Spurgeon, Piper, Lloyd-Jones, Sproul, JM Boice, Barnhouse, Kuyper, Chalmers, Knox & countless others all believing this theology & just discredit it because you dont get it Perhaps you can interpret 1 Corinthians 2:14 for me: " The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him... neither can he know them,for they are spiritually discerned. "

So you say you can loose your salvation .... you believe in the notion of "Falling From Grace" LOL

OK, then support it scripturally.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

EWF, I figured you would point out the burlesque of comparing God's grace with a life insurance policy and I recognize it is not a perfect analogy. But only because it is difficult to compare the things of God with the concepts of man.

As for your assertion that we are saved in spite of ourselves, I can't go there. I know you have embraced the tenets of Calvinism with nearly as much zeal as some of the die hard Cals on this board. I will refrain from mocking you but I sincerely believe the Calvinist outlook is inconsistent with with God's plan as revealed in scripture.

Without Jesus Christ it would be impossible to be saved. However, despite what you suggest and what Reformed Baptist just suggested above, we have to do something to be saved. If you can be saved by doing nothing, we would all be saved and we could dismiss all our pastors, dissolve all our churches and recall all our missionaries. Or, if God simply saves some people by giving them faith and leaves others to perish, He is indeed a diabolical Machiavellian god. Salvation requires the grace of Jesus Christ and the cooperation of man. Deep down I think you know that.

Friend,

What hand did you have in bringing your natural life into this world? What did you do to be born into the world of men?

Why then do you suppose that you should have any hand or say in God bringing His spiritual sons and daughters into His kingdom?

 

[Tom Butler]

That is a great passage and it gives me a lot of comfort every time I read it. However, we must choose to join the fold and we are always free to leave the fold. Scripture does not say we are locked in, only that intruders are locked out. As I read this verse, it appears Paul is comparing the blindness of the Jews with the faith of the Gentiles. "The gifts and calliing of God" are a promise to the Gentile people, not a personal promise of individual salvation.

To refresh memories, we're talking about Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Yes, the context of the verse is God's relation to the Jews, but the principle remains the same. Paul has just written that the Jews are enemies of the gospel, but they are still God's elect people, and he will restore them to covenant relationship in the future.

 

[Winman]

Friend,

What hand did you have in bringing your natural life into this world? What did you do to be born into the world of men?

Why then do you suppose that you should have any hand or say in God bringing His spiritual sons and daughters into His kingdom?

But your parents did bring you into this world. It was the union of your father and mother that brought forth you. Yet, you are not your parents, you are a complete individual.

And it takes two to be born again, it takes the union of the Holy Spirit with our spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

When we accept Christ, his Holy Spirit is joined with our spirit to make a new creation, a new individual.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[Amy.G]

2Co*1:22 Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph*1:13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph*4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Zenas, if you will study what "sealed" means I think it will help you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But your parents did bring you into this world. It was the union of your father and mother that brought forth you. Yet, you are not your parents, you are a complete individual.

And it takes two to be born again, it takes the union of the Holy Spirit with our spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

When we accept Christ, his Holy Spirit is joined with our spirit to make a new creation, a new individual.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Sorry but whats any of this have to do with loosing your salvation? Now Im confused

 

[ReformedBaptist]

But your parents did bring you into this world. It was the union of your father and mother that brought forth you. Yet, you are not your parents, you are a complete individual.

And it takes two to be born again, it takes the union of the Holy Spirit with our spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

When we accept Christ, his Holy Spirit is joined with our spirit to make a new creation, a new individual.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

If we are discussing the act of the new birth winman, the Scriptures which you have shared which I most heartily believe and receive, do not discuss the act, but the effect.

Which text of Scripture likens being born of God with being born the first time?

 

[freeatlast]

Like I replied to EW&F, you cannot be saved by your works. You must have the grace of Jesus Christ. But you can't be saved without cooperating with and obeying the commands of Christ either. And yes, God does expect us to acheive. Please read the parable of the talents.
I don't desire works. Frankly, your brand of salvation is a lot easier. But our works are what preserves our salvation:


And these aren't my teachings, they are the Word of God. I'm sorry if I struck a nerve there, but truth is truth and you should not distort it to fit your ill conceived soteriology.

Like I said you are a workls salvationist. It is not faith and works. it is faith alone. ------------

 

[Zenas]

Perhaps you can interpret 1 Corinthians 2:14 for me: " The natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him... neither can he know them,for they are spiritually discerned. "

Paul was addressing the problems in the church at Corinth, particularly their bickering and factions. He was explaining that human knowledge cannot understand the things of God It takes spirit to discern spirit. Paul was not talking about understanding scripture.

So you say you can loose your salvation .... you believe in the notion of "Falling From Grace" LOL

OK, then support it scripturally

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4.

 

[Winman]

If we are discussing the act of the new birth winman, the Scriptures which you have shared which I most heartily believe and receive, do not discuss the act, but the effect.

Which text of Scripture likens being born of God with being born the first time?

I would say the word "born" itself compares our spiritual birth to our physical birth. The Lord could have easily used another word if he did not mean to imply this.

And look up the word "joined" in your concordance, you will see in every instance it speaks of voluntarily joining one's self with another.

The scriptures show this, John 1:12 says as many as "received" him, to them (those that received him) gave he power to BECOME the sons of God, even to them (those that received him) that believe on his name:

You aren't regenerated and made a son of God in order to receive Jesus as Calvinism teaches, you must receive Jesus to "become" a son of God. And that this receiving is voluntary is shown by those who refused him and received him not in verse 11.

 

[Zenas]

Friend,

What hand did you have in bringing your natural life into this world? What did you do to be born into the world of men?

Why then do you suppose that you should have any hand or say in God bringing His spiritual sons and daughters into His kingdom?

Because life has no purpose if we have no control over our eternal destiny. We are just parts of a finely tuned machine. That is not God's way. He wants us to come to Him and to know Him--all of us. And he gave us the power of reason and the gift of discernment to help us along the way. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

 

[freeatlast]

Because life has no purpose if we have no control over our eternal destiny. We are just parts of a finely tuned machine. That is not God's way. He wants us to come to Him and to know Him--all of us. And he gave us the power of reason and the gift of discernment to help us along the way. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

God's way is not our way and especially not your way. God does the saving and He does the keeping. No one ever lost their salvation. It is not get saved by faith and stay saved by works or works/faith. That is a works salvation and brings a curse on those who teach it.