Thank you for your opinion, Freeatlast. I see you reject "Faith without works is dead." I'm not rejecting any scriptures, although I gave you several and you are equally unimpressed.
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Losing Salvation?
- Thread starter MamaCW
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freeatlast
New Member
I am impressed with all scripture, just not the twisting of it and falsely teaching what it does nto mean. No I don't reject faith without works.. That passage proves what i have been saying. if a person as NO WORKS they are not saved. It is not saying they were saved and now are not. it is saying a person who claims salvation and there is no evidence that they are saved then they are not. The works are the evidence of the salvation. Saved people never stop the works/evidence of the salvation once they are saved. If showed works at one time and they stop and the person leaves they were never saved. 1John 2:19
Have you actually read Galatians? The curse is on those who do not practice all the works of the Mosaic law. It says nothing about doing good works or any other works other than the Mosiac law. And it concerns the practice (or non-practice) of those things, not the teaching of them.
freeatlast
New Member
No wonder you are so confused if you get that out of Gal. A person cannot lose their salvation.
Please Let Me Make This Absolutely Clear!
I was saved prior to my going "prodigal." I know that without a doubt. I also know that I became entangled with situations that I handled poorly, but it was apparent with my return to the Father on that Sunday night in April 1987, that the Father NEVER once let me go. He NEVER once gave up on me, and that is evidenced in a lot of things that I can look back on over that prodigal walk, and see that He was still there protecting me, guiding me, and placing things in my path to get me back to where we could be reunited.
There never was any doubt in my mind, as I look back at my messed up life, that God still loved me, and patiently waited for my return.
I've run across those believers who disagree with my view, but we must remember that when the prodigal return, there was a jealous son, who resented the warm welcome by his father of the prodigal son. That is between those folks and the Father, and I've learned to ignore any naysayers...
I guess I'll have to wait until I walk among the saints in eternity to know for sure if I was right about what I believe. However, if He writes our name in the Lamb's Book of lIfe when we are saved, than my name was entered on that page on Christmas Eve 1966.
Thanks for this post, it is a good topic FAL. And I just wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand your comment!
Shalom,
Pastor Paul
I was saved prior to my going "prodigal." I know that without a doubt. I also know that I became entangled with situations that I handled poorly, but it was apparent with my return to the Father on that Sunday night in April 1987, that the Father NEVER once let me go. He NEVER once gave up on me, and that is evidenced in a lot of things that I can look back on over that prodigal walk, and see that He was still there protecting me, guiding me, and placing things in my path to get me back to where we could be reunited.
There never was any doubt in my mind, as I look back at my messed up life, that God still loved me, and patiently waited for my return.
I've run across those believers who disagree with my view, but we must remember that when the prodigal return, there was a jealous son, who resented the warm welcome by his father of the prodigal son. That is between those folks and the Father, and I've learned to ignore any naysayers...
I guess I'll have to wait until I walk among the saints in eternity to know for sure if I was right about what I believe. However, if He writes our name in the Lamb's Book of lIfe when we are saved, than my name was entered on that page on Christmas Eve 1966.
Thanks for this post, it is a good topic FAL. And I just wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand your comment!
Shalom,
Pastor Paul
Tom Butler
New Member
A couple of scripture verses come to mind.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 4:6 'David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.
God's granting us justification is based not on our works but on Jesus' righteousness, imputed to us. Works are an evidence of salvation, but are not condition of salvation, nor of eternal security.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 4:6 'David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.
God's granting us justification is based not on our works but on Jesus' righteousness, imputed to us. Works are an evidence of salvation, but are not condition of salvation, nor of eternal security.
freeatlast
New Member
If you want to believe this that is your business, but you also need to reconcile this with scripture that contradicts your claims. The prodigal was not a saved individual who went astray for a time and returned. The prodigal is about Israel who departed from the Lord as a people at some point in time past and are lost and then see the error of their way after many generations of suffering and they finally come to God for salvation. In fact in the prodigal account it actually says this.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
So like I said I praise God for your getting saved.
freeatlast
New Member
You are correct that God credits righteousness apart from works but not without works.
james 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Yes, the prodigal son was lost, but I see nothing in the context to suggest this is an allegory concerning Israel. I agree that if you think about it, it fits with Israel, but Jesus says nothing about Isreal before, during or after this discouse. So why do you believe it is about Israel instead of a lost person?
Robert Snow
New Member
Thank you for this wonderful testimony. I have on that is somewhat similar, but I will spare you the details. The important thing is that although we may let go of God for a while, He never lets go of us.
You will have to forgive Freeatlast, his viewpoint on this subject is faulty, as is his interpretation of the verses he uses to justify his false belief concerning this issue. Like so many of us who have a hobby horse we ride constantly, this is his. Perhaps one day he will see the error of his beliefs. I pray it doesn't require him going through what you and I went through. It might though because pride goes before destruction. I do know that God has a way of getting our attention.
As far as losing our salvation is concerned, it is not a biblical concept. We are born into God's family. I don't know of any way to be unborn. I know my son was born into my family, and although I could be disappointed with his actions, he will always be my son, and I don't think I have more compassion than God does.
freeatlast
New Member
One reason is this;
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Also He was speaking to the Jew.
You will notice that the prodigal son is not said to have been saved and lost, saved before, saved again. Just lost and dead and now saved. The other son are those Jews who did not leave and turn to the world. This teaching has absolutely nothing to do with someone who is saved and turns to sinning. 1john 3 proves that.
Tom Butler
New Member
And I spoke to that in the post you responded to when I said works are evidence of salvation.
Yes but that is a different view of the parable than you gave earlier. You said:
I consulted three reputable commentaries and only one of them mentioned this take on the prodigal, and that one only used it as an alternative explanation. So the probable explanation is that the prodigal represents sinners and publicans, and the older son represents the scribes and pharisees. I can't agree that the younger son was always lost. He started out in the good graces of his father. Moreover, the other two parables in this trilogy start out with things possessed by their owner (sheep and coin) but which are later lost.
freeatlast
New Member
Well what you have done is chosen a doctrine based on an obscure passage and rejected the clear passages that make your doctrine void. Your belief cannot stand if you look at 1John 2:19 and 1John 3:9-10
Be Careful . . .
. . . of what you hold so rigidly, as it often comes back to haunt you! :thumbs:
Shalom!
Pastor Paul
. . . of what you hold so rigidly, as it often comes back to haunt you! :thumbs:
Shalom!
Pastor Paul
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But it seems clear that the phrase, "fallen from grace" (at least, as used in Galatians 5.4) cannot mean, "become unsaved after having been saved", because Paul, addressing the same people, says a few verses later in Galatians 5.10:
"I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is."
The context is that the Galatian Christians were being drawn into error by false teachers who were telling them that, to be Christians, they had to submit to physical circumcision. So he is warning them against false teaching which tends to make them rely on an outward ceremony and not on grace alone. He is not saying they are no longer Christians. In verse 11, he calls them "brethren". In verse 12, he talks of "those who trouble you" (the false teachers).
freeatlast
New Member
David you are correct. One possibility is that Paul is saying they have fallen from the freedom that comes with grace. I know of many and some here on this board that believe that a person can lose their salvation. While they may be saved they never experience the full joy, peace and freedom they would if they understand grace.
One thing we know is Paul was not suggesting that the saved person lost his salvation because they got circumcised. If they did Timotheus was lost because of what Paul did in Acts 16.
Great Point FAL! And I Apologize . . .
. . . for not being more clear.
"On a personal note, I can tell you that even though I tried to walk away from God (following my divorce and the loss of the ministry), He never quit on me. I spent approximately 15 years trying to run away from Him, hiding myself in world porn and illicit s@xual relationships, but, there came that "pig trough" moment for me, and I found myself back in church, broken spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially. "
In a private conversation with FAL, it was pointed out to me that had I spent my energy trying to escape from my 15 year walk in sin, that would cause a change.
I guess you cannot read between the lines in the above sentence that during that 15 years, I worked as a music/worship leader, choir director, youth Pastor, and I ministered and led a small congregation on three different occasions.
During my prodigal walk, I was as ashamed of my sin, as I was angry with God, and when I gave into my lust, I sought forgiveness and asked to be delivered and set free.
However, my flesh was at war with my spirit, and each time I sinned. The flesh gained power over me, driving me deeper into the pit of sin.
What happened to be I had reached this point (after 15 years) of being tired of sinning, praying for new direction and forgiveness, only to find myself right back at the altar of the devil and the dark temptation I was allowing to t over my life.
That frustration brought me to the point of desperation, and like the Word says, Jesus came to give us life, Satan came to take that life, I ended up with a rifle barrel in my mouth. The Lord did not allow the trigger to work, and when it failed to fire the bullet, I decided that I'd take a hand full of blood pressure pills. This didn't happen either, as the Soirit of God came upon me, and I fell asleep right on the edge of my bed.
I woke up there 15 hours later, and realized that my sin was at the point of taking and ending my life. I was scared with the thought that I came so close to ending my life, and with my wife, we headed to a church in Orange County.
BTW. The two suicide letters that I threw at my wife when I came from work the night before were never read. My wife called her best friend, who entered into prayer for me. My wife burnt those letter in the fire place that evening.
When I say I was prodigal for 15 years, it never meant that I was not cognizant of God. That is why I say in my earlier post, that looking back, I can see where God never gave up on me.
As I point out in my book, I was on a no-win merry ground. I couldn't find a way off, and it was ruining my life, and totally increasing the gap between God and me.
Those 15 years were like a "revolving door!" I would not recommend this type of life to anyone.
Thanks FAL for pointing this error out, and allowing me to correct and clear up my mini-testimony!
Pastor Paul :type:
. . . for not being more clear.
"On a personal note, I can tell you that even though I tried to walk away from God (following my divorce and the loss of the ministry), He never quit on me. I spent approximately 15 years trying to run away from Him, hiding myself in world porn and illicit s@xual relationships, but, there came that "pig trough" moment for me, and I found myself back in church, broken spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially. "
In a private conversation with FAL, it was pointed out to me that had I spent my energy trying to escape from my 15 year walk in sin, that would cause a change.
I guess you cannot read between the lines in the above sentence that during that 15 years, I worked as a music/worship leader, choir director, youth Pastor, and I ministered and led a small congregation on three different occasions.
During my prodigal walk, I was as ashamed of my sin, as I was angry with God, and when I gave into my lust, I sought forgiveness and asked to be delivered and set free.
However, my flesh was at war with my spirit, and each time I sinned. The flesh gained power over me, driving me deeper into the pit of sin.
What happened to be I had reached this point (after 15 years) of being tired of sinning, praying for new direction and forgiveness, only to find myself right back at the altar of the devil and the dark temptation I was allowing to t over my life.
That frustration brought me to the point of desperation, and like the Word says, Jesus came to give us life, Satan came to take that life, I ended up with a rifle barrel in my mouth. The Lord did not allow the trigger to work, and when it failed to fire the bullet, I decided that I'd take a hand full of blood pressure pills. This didn't happen either, as the Soirit of God came upon me, and I fell asleep right on the edge of my bed.
I woke up there 15 hours later, and realized that my sin was at the point of taking and ending my life. I was scared with the thought that I came so close to ending my life, and with my wife, we headed to a church in Orange County.
BTW. The two suicide letters that I threw at my wife when I came from work the night before were never read. My wife called her best friend, who entered into prayer for me. My wife burnt those letter in the fire place that evening.
When I say I was prodigal for 15 years, it never meant that I was not cognizant of God. That is why I say in my earlier post, that looking back, I can see where God never gave up on me.
As I point out in my book, I was on a no-win merry ground. I couldn't find a way off, and it was ruining my life, and totally increasing the gap between God and me.
Those 15 years were like a "revolving door!" I would not recommend this type of life to anyone.
Thanks FAL for pointing this error out, and allowing me to correct and clear up my mini-testimony!
Pastor Paul :type:
freeatlast
New Member
Paul thank you for the correction. This makes more sense. Grace is a marvelous thing. God bless
You cannot be saved and lost. Anyone who says this, does not understand biblical salvation.
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