The limits of free will...

We can take the example of Jonah. He was "free" to ignore God's command to go to Ninevah...until God said No to him and had him thrown overboard. From this example, we can ignore God; we can disobey God; we can go our own way.......Then, God says "enough" and redirects our attention.

The same is true in many biblical incidents and I am sure in much of our lives.

The key phrase is ":thus far and no further." God decides.

Cheers,

Jim

 

"Please cite the source for that post... Plagiarism is not in keeping with truthful scholarship."
Glfredrick

Gee, you are right, I did get everything in that post from (1) God's word, and (2) the insights provided by the Holy Spirit during prayerful bible study.

 

Glfredrick says I have "STILL not dealt with the OP question." Here is what I said:

"What are the limits of Libertarian Free Will?
One of the questions concerning libertarian free will (if it should exist as suggested) is what are its limits, or are there limits to free will?"

I would toss limited free will (meaning the ability to make choices that change the outcome of our lives) into the spectrum that starts at one end with exhaustive determinism- free will does not exist - then to Compatibilism and then to limited free will and at the other end of the spectrum of beliefs, libertarianism.

The difference between libertarian free will and limited free will, is the range of choices assumed to be allowed by God. In the limited free will view, only when God allows a person to exercise choice in that area, are they able to make autonomous choices.

This view is consistent with "we make plans, but God directs our steps" verse in Psalms. Take the case of the unbelieving Jews hardened by God in Romans 11. Before they were hardened they could have chosen Christ and obtained mercy because that choice was allowed by God. But, when He hardened them, their free will became even more limited, now to the point where they could not choose to trust in Christ. So if scripture says something is foreordained, predestined, whatever it is has been applied to us, then we no longer have the ability to choose otherwise. So, according to my eternal security view, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, our free will to walk away from our faith and devotion to Christ is taken away. We can sure still backslide and quench the Spirit, but I believe in the heart of hearts of every born again believer, they love Jesus till the day they die because God keeps them by protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In summary the limits imposed by God on our capacity to make autonomous choices are according to His purpose. He created us to bring Him glory, and when we repent we bring Him glory, so God allows us or grants us the liberty to choose to trust in Christ because that fulfills His purpose of creation.

The problem with Compatibilism is God says He sets life and death before us and desires that we choose life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20.) If our past dictated our choice, we would have either life or death before us because the alternative would not be available. Thus the view turns the meaning of choice into non-choice. If a person cannot pick one or the other, but must pick one and cannot pick the other, it is a non-choice. Thus the view is completely unbiblical.

If we were computers made of meat, to borrow a phrase, why would it bring glory to God for us to "repent" when that choice to forsake ourselves and trust in God, was the result of the compulsion of the past. That would be akin to thinking if a pull string doll said, "I love you" that would ascribe some honor or glory to whoever pulled the string.

Did God give us the Law which He knew none of us could follow perfectly to lead us to Christ? Yes. Did God give us Christ to set before us the choice of life or death and beg us to choose life? Yes, as ambassadors of Christ we are to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Does compatibilism rewrite this truth as God set before some life, because they had no other choice, and death before the others because they had no other choice, being unable to alter the outcome that had been exhaustively determined. Yes.

The limits of our autonomous choices are set by God, and God does not leave those limits static for our lives. He can take away and He can add. Take away by hardening, and those limits can also be reduced by our practice of sin, so that what we had is taken away. To him who has, more will be given can be applied to receiving the Holy Spirit, where we are then able to understand the spiritual things discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit, and thus grow and alter our entry into heaven, because those that grow and earn rewards, enter abundantly.

We are limited in that we cannot do anything or think anything that will save us. Romans 9:16. But we can believe and if God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, He puts us in Christ where we are given more range; we can now do good works that earn rewards.

God rules and does as He pleases, and scripture tells us it pleased God to create people who could choose life or death, and that God sets both options before them.

So by the numbers (1) Are there limits to LFW? Answer Yes (2) Does LFW exist? Answer No but limited free will does. (3) What are the limits to free will? Answer: The limits are the restrictions imposed by God to fulfill His purpose, as illustrated in the following: Adam was free to sin or not sin but once corrupted and separated from God nothing he could do or think could restore his former relationship with God. As a consequence of Adams sin, the many (everyone but Christ" were made sinners, predisposed to sin by our corrupted fleshly natures. However, in this limited condition, we can still set our minds on some spiritual things, the milk of the gospel, because men of the flesh are able to receive it. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. But this limited spiritual ability can be reduced further by (a) the practice of sinning, resulting in being like the first soil of Matthew 13, and/or (b) God hardening our heart - taking away are ability to trust in Christ - as described in Romans 11. On the other hand God can expand the range of our free will by sealing us in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a guide to understanding the spiritual things only understood with the aid the Spirit. Finally, when we are resurrected in glorified bodies, we are set free from the limits imposed through our corrupt flesh, free at last, free at last.

 

Brother Jim,

I love you as a fellow Calvinistic believer & I agree with your theology totally. My questions however are pointed at the Arminians to better understand their side of the story. We believe totally in God's Sovereignty in all things but I want to know how you can believe otherwise....for my own edification.

Bless you....BTW how are your eyes these days?

Regards
Steve

PS would you consider the story Gods Permissive Will?

 

Steve, my eyes are amazing. Sixty-five years of glasses, and now free since February 3rd. I do have glasses for reading, but that is all.

On theology; some are God-centered whilst others are man-centered, and herein lies the problem. Some are more concerned with what man can and cannot do. They just don't want to accept that God is in total control.

Grace and faith are not the innate choices of man. They are the free gifts of God, but as scripture says over and over, the gifts essential to salvation. They begin with God, not with man.

On man's free will, we are looking at a totally different realm; the everyday life of man. He chooses freely what to eat and drink, what to wear and not wear, when to cross the street and when not to cross the street. These are all life decisions. I did not choose ministry. It chose me, even when I tried to leave it. Circumstances drew me back with no choice. I could twist the doorknobs, but could not open or close the doors. God leads; man follows.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Fredrick, I've defined my view of free will many times on this forum as being, "A choice to act is free if it is an expression of an agent's categorical ability of the will to refrain or not refrain from the action (i.e., contra-causal freedom)."

As to defining what limits the will of man I've also provided an answer, which you acknowledge did at least address the question of your OP, but you presumed there must be more limitations. I ask for you to be more specific and all you can offer is a rebuke for our lack of defining the term, when a definition has been offered numerous times and in numerous threads.

If you have a specific clarification regarding that definition, then ask, but these accusations and rebukes are unnecessary. What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in this manner (what are its limits?) is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. Ciocchi, who debated Feinberg, put it this way: "the choice between available options "is what free will is all about . . ., and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism the libertarian rejects" (Ciocchi, p. 94).

Understand?

 

No matter how intelligent or articulate you are GL, you do yourself no favors with such.

 

Praise God for that dear friend! Now lets hope he allows for some warm weather (I am freezing) LOL

Seriously, I am convinced....I doubt anything could unconvinced me. Ive been reading Institutes at my own pace & even Calvin's Golden Booklet along with my Bible Studies & Ive gleaned much from my studies. Thanks for always being there whenever Ive needed clarification. Your example as a Christian Pastor & Educator has been stellar.

God Bless you my Brother

 

Q....the mind works as it will brother. You do know some of the things Guy does to earn a living dont you (he has detailed them in other posts) so I'm assuming he has some pretty fine antenna. However assuming isnt knowing so I will butt out of any suggestive dialog.

Have you noticed that some of the noted Calvinistic sounding boards have seemingly quit the Board. My own personal conversations with them has by in large been a listening session of vented disgust with the vitriol in here lending to my original predictions that anyone different from the norm gets chased out. You & I both observed the excoriation of the RC's to the point I believe we got one token to point to....as long as she behaves. Only a matter of time till folks communicating Calvinistic views would get pushed out....oh oh sorry, encourged to leave. Sad but true.

 

I have absolutely no intention of seeing anyone (reformed or otherwise) removed or asked to leave, I am quite the opposite. I just deplore attempts by anyone attempting to imply someone else is a dunderhead. Say your peace, say it "nicely" and all is well.

 

No Q I understand that & Im not saying you are. Probably most are leaving because they are tired of the bickering. Allot are more comfortable in Forums that are "Reformed Theology" oriented (not naming names) and allow Baptists to join. Last I looked there is an increased baptist contingency.

Tschuss & Wis Bald! (Practicing my German/ LOL)

 

Shhhhh, dont tell anyone, but I enjoy reading the Catholic Forums. They often have a diverse group and most of the time considerably more civil. Pluse I sometimes gain insight as to how my Catholic friends "think" theologically and otherwise.

 

Dont tell who? LOL.... BTW I practiced Catholicism for 32 years. Both my mother & grandmother were two of the most devout RC Christians youd ever meet & as my wife said today "Classy". Now here is a key issue apparently lacking on this board.....neither said a bad or malicious word against anyone. Even when my mom was criticized for being "that Catholic" by my fathers dad & brother she never retaliated or said a cross word against them or their faith. I haven't been as honorable as my mother I'm sorry to say. I do raise & house blind bulldogs however. So if your looking for a lovable pet....

 

I have never been Catholic so I dont have that "tradition". Over the years, I have had many Catholic friends. The wife and I have three small indoor dogs now, and often rescue and place abandoned dogs. We have a very small back yard and cannot quarter a large dog for very long. But we are Dog lovers.

 

yes, we all will still struggle while in this fallen flesh BUT...

The unsaved have NO MEANS to restrain this within themselves, as their sin nature is their Master..

Christians have now Holy Spirit residing in them, s CAN choose which will be their Master, Sin or Spirit

Unsaved in "bondage to Flesh" Sin DOES have mastery over them
Saved can choose to have Holy Spirit have Christ as their Master

BIg difference in free will at that point!

 

Knew I likes you manno :thumbs:

I understand you also like Yeast & Hopps based adult beverages cold ....your OK

 

Just as there are many various ways Calvinists define their view of man's will and its relation to God's, there are differences in how scholars define and defend libertarian freedom. I've provided my definition. Van has provided one as well. I don't see our two views at odds with each other in any significant way, just worded a bit differently.

I don't know of anyone who believes our freedom is not limited by anything. Can you provide any scholars who makes such arguments so we may judge for ourselves if that is really their view and what is the basis for it?