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Are Carnal Christians Those Who Chose to Not Submit To Spirit But To Flesh?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
No. When a person first becomes a christian, when God first puts a person spiritually in Christ and seals them with the Holy Spirit, they are termed "babes in Christ." Born again, but not spiritually mature, they have yet to learn the spiritual things learned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit.
Now the process of being convicted and learning occurs over time, and the process is called progressive sanctification. We continue that process from conversion -born again as a new creation created for good works - until we die (or Christ returns.)
If we remain "babes in Christ" and our life has not changed over time from being like we were before conversion, then we can be called carnal Christians. Every Christian can exhibit carnal thinking and actions, but they should be exceptions. When I am tired or sick my tongue tends to revert to my former manner of making thoughtless outbursts.
But because I have learned not to give in to the flesh or make an accomodation (its ok cause its small potatoes) I bite my lip so to speak.
In summary, any Christian can exhibit "carnality" but the term most appropriately refers to newborns whose life has not changed from the inside out yet.
Now the process of being convicted and learning occurs over time, and the process is called progressive sanctification. We continue that process from conversion -born again as a new creation created for good works - until we die (or Christ returns.)
If we remain "babes in Christ" and our life has not changed over time from being like we were before conversion, then we can be called carnal Christians. Every Christian can exhibit carnal thinking and actions, but they should be exceptions. When I am tired or sick my tongue tends to revert to my former manner of making thoughtless outbursts.
But because I have learned not to give in to the flesh or make an accomodation (its ok cause its small potatoes) I bite my lip so to speak.
In summary, any Christian can exhibit "carnality" but the term most appropriately refers to newborns whose life has not changed from the inside out yet.
I'll have to disagree with Van and say yes. Carnal simply means the flesh. Regardless of whether we have been a believer for many years and have grown on meat, or we are a new believer still on milk, when we give into the flesh at the expense of shunning the Spirit we are carnal. This happens to every believer at every point of our walk. The simple word for it is "sin" 
freeatlast
New Member
I agree with what Van has said but I do want to add to it. I am assuming that you are getting this term from 1Cor where Paul is rebuking the church at Corinth. First let me point out that the term is never anyplace used to accuse any individual as being carnal. This term is used as a designation in this case for the church as a whole. They thought that they were spiritual and were puffed up, but Paul is knocking them down and saying are you not carnal even babes in Christ. Then you need to be careful to notice what he was referring to. It is not things like adultery, lying, stealing and sins of that nature. Look at what Paul says as to what makes them carnal;
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
So again this is not about sins of the flesh like some would like it to mean and it is not about an individual. This is about those sins of pride, envy, strife and such and we need to limit to those and when refering to being carnal it is for the whole church, not just an individual.
So to call someone who claims to be a believer carnal because they remain in fleshly sin is incorrect if we are basing it on 1Cor. No individual should who is a Christian should be referred to as carnal. That person who is in those sins is lost if that is their practice. Read the 6th chapter.
So if a person IS NOT submitting to the Spirit they are lost. All Christians are being lead by the Spirit, and to be lead means they have to be following. It may not be perfect, but it is there. Read Romans 8
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
So again this is not about sins of the flesh like some would like it to mean and it is not about an individual. This is about those sins of pride, envy, strife and such and we need to limit to those and when refering to being carnal it is for the whole church, not just an individual.
So to call someone who claims to be a believer carnal because they remain in fleshly sin is incorrect if we are basing it on 1Cor. No individual should who is a Christian should be referred to as carnal. That person who is in those sins is lost if that is their practice. Read the 6th chapter.
So if a person IS NOT submitting to the Spirit they are lost. All Christians are being lead by the Spirit, and to be lead means they have to be following. It may not be perfect, but it is there. Read Romans 8
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Paul speaks of three types of people from the Greek,
Psueche - of the soul (i. e. the unbeliever) Translated in the bible as the following:
heart, heartily, life, lives, mind, minds, person, persons, soul, souls, suspense, thing
Sarx - or Sarkikos which means in the flesh or a fleshly believer one who is walking in the flesh but has been saved. Here are the definitions
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
the body
the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation
the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
without any suggestion of depravity
the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" Carnally minded (sarkikos). Spiritually minded (pnuematikos). What death is Paul speaking of here, it is temporal death. Temporary separation of the believer from fellowship and guidence by the Holy Spirit, why because sin is reigning in their lives. That is being carnal, allowing sin to control and dominate your life as a believer.
Pnuematikos - in the Spirit, this is the Believer who is walking in the Spirit, the Spirit filled believer.
The difference in the Carnal believer and the Spiritual believer is a matter of 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is Faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." We as believers in Christ must practice confession of sin if not we are carnal because we have no fellowship with the Father. Until we confess we are in the flesh.
The Christian Way of Life is spelled out for us in "Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" the filling of the Spirit means you are under His control, you have all sin confessed and are being guided by the Spirit.
Carnallity means you are walking in the flesh under the control of your Old Sin Nature.
Psueche - of the soul (i. e. the unbeliever) Translated in the bible as the following:
heart, heartily, life, lives, mind, minds, person, persons, soul, souls, suspense, thing
Sarx - or Sarkikos which means in the flesh or a fleshly believer one who is walking in the flesh but has been saved. Here are the definitions
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
the body
the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation
the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
without any suggestion of depravity
the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" Carnally minded (sarkikos). Spiritually minded (pnuematikos). What death is Paul speaking of here, it is temporal death. Temporary separation of the believer from fellowship and guidence by the Holy Spirit, why because sin is reigning in their lives. That is being carnal, allowing sin to control and dominate your life as a believer.
Pnuematikos - in the Spirit, this is the Believer who is walking in the Spirit, the Spirit filled believer.
The difference in the Carnal believer and the Spiritual believer is a matter of 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is Faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." We as believers in Christ must practice confession of sin if not we are carnal because we have no fellowship with the Father. Until we confess we are in the flesh.
The Christian Way of Life is spelled out for us in "Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" the filling of the Spirit means you are under His control, you have all sin confessed and are being guided by the Spirit.
Carnallity means you are walking in the flesh under the control of your Old Sin Nature.
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freeatlast
New Member
What old sin nature?
rev mac
Wrong.....there is only two types of men spoken of,and the death spoken of is the second death:
Wrong.....there is only two types of men spoken of,and the death spoken of is the second death:
Paul makes it very clear we ALL have an Old Sin Nature in us:
Romans 7:15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Pretty clear we have sin that dwells in us thus the old nature to sin that we have had since birth.
Christ had no sin nature since he had no earthly father and the sin nature is passed through the father. Because Adam sinned the nature to sin was passed from the father to his children.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Again in the flesh the Old Sin Nature dwells in us.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Paul was as we are in a constant battle with the old sin nature.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. The Ols Sin Nature dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
These verses are real clear sin still dwells in the believer. Unless of course you say Paul wasn't saved.
There is the unrepent sinner, the lost. There are the saved of that there are two. But there are two types of believers, faithful, those controlled by the spirit and those walking in the flesh.
1 Corinthians 3: 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
There are by this those who are faithfl and receive the reward of gold, silver and precious stones. There are those who will recieve wood, hay and stubble. I believe every believer will have some wood, hay and stubble.
Since the believer can be carnal (i.e. controlled by teh flesh) then they are in the state of temporal death.
A believer and Paul is speaking to believers here cannot die the second death. The second death is seperation from God for eternity. You attribute the death of the carnally minded to the second death, since they have not died physically they could not have experienced the second death. Since the second death requires the first (physical) death verse 6 cannot be referring to the second death. If Paul is refering to carnal believers who according "1 COR. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.:" suffers eternal loss he himself is still sved yet thou as through the fire. The carnal person is temporarilly seperated from fellowship with God because he is allowing sin to control his life.
freeatlast
New Member
I see you added to the scripture in verse 20 to justify your position. No Paul never suggests that we have two natures dwelling in the same soul. We had a sin nature and it died with Christ and we are raised to a newness of life. Now all we have left is the flesh to battle against and we have been given a new nature to do that. Also the passage in Romans 7 that you are trying to use is not about Paul as a Christian. Paul made it clear that while he was under the law, before he was saved, he was blameless. If Paul was blameless under the law then he did not suddenly become overcome with sin after conversion. Listen to his words;
Phil 3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Also if you don't think he is talking about someone who is lost look at Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
A person who has been saved is not carnal sold under sin. We were carnal sold under sin by Adam, but we are redeemed washed in the blood of the Lamb. No, Paul is not talking about himself after his salvation in Romans 7.
The scripture never teaches we have two natures. The teaching is false but because so many have fell to its power they use the false teaching to excuse their sin at least in part. If you are carnal you are lost.
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The carnally minded are not saved ,they are still in the realm of death,not having been born again.They will go to second death when they leave this body.Verse 6 is speaking of two persons two realms,life/death.
The carnally minded are in the flesh...they cannot please God they are none of His.romans 8:6-9.
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freeatlast
New Member
I totally agree! :thumbs:
Are you sure about that?
You have some flaws with your philosophy as stated above.
The two natures are the "Adamic" or sin nature that is passed down from Adam.
The new nature that is given to us by the Holy Spirit when we are saved.
If you no longer have the Adamic nature, and only have that new nature, then you run into a number of theological problems:
1. God never sins, and it is God that dwells in you. Since you say you no longer have that sinful old nature it only goes to say that you cannot sin, for God, the Holy Spirit (who dwells in you and gave you that new nature) cannot sin.
2. But you do sin. We all sin. And you know you sin. Correct?
3. If you claim that you do not sin, you run into another, more serious problem:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
--You deceive yourself, the truth is not in you, you make Christ a liar, and His Word is not in you. That is a sad condition to be--if you say that you do not sin.
Where does the Bible teach that the carnal are lost. This is a presupposition on your part. Paul clearly says:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Corinthians 3:3)
--He calls the brethren and he calls them carnal. In four verses he uses the word "carnal" four times. He emphasizes the fact that these brethren, these believers in Christ, are carnal Christians. You cannot argue with this passage of Scripture.
freeatlast
New Member
If I may let me use your terminology
You have some flaws with your philosophy as stated above
1) First your theory is like saying a lost person with only a sin nature can not do outward good. We all know that is not true. While their deeds are not accepted by God outwardly they still can do some good things. Also the fact that The Spirit dwells in us does not mean we become God, only that we have the power to accomplish what He has ordained and that is spelled out in Eph 2. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2) Certainly I sin from time to time, but not because of an old nature. I have to go against the nature that I have been given to do the sin. Just like Adam who went against his created nature. That is why it is so painful.
Where does the Bible teach that the carnal are lost. This is a presupposition on your part.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Notice that little word death. A Christian never dies. That is speaking of the lost.
verse 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Notice again the carnal are against God. This is not a Christian as the Christian is for God. 2Cor 3:8
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
1 Corinthians 3:1 In Paul is dealing with the church at Corinth it is not an individual but the whole church. In Romans when the term carnal is used it is speaking on the individual and when the term is put on an individual it refers to being lost. In the case of Corinth when Paul uses the term he is addressing the whole church and yes he calls them carnal as a church as in comparing them to the lost.
It would be like someone coming on this board for the first time and reading many of the posts here. They could easily accuse this board as being carnal and never mean that the board was lost, but acting like the lost. However if they came on here and singled out a person and called them carnal they would be saying they are lost from a biblical standpoint.
The church at Corinth was carnal in their actions, but the people were saved. That is the difference.
Now back to the first;
If you still have the Adamic nature, along with new nature, then you run into a number of theological problems:
1) I would have to ask you where does your new nature reside? Are you saying that the Spirit is sharing a place with the fallen nature?
2)The old nature was the nature of a dead man. Are you saying we are still dead or dead and alive at the same time?
3)Eph Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened
1) to make one alive together
a) of Christians, with Christ
us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Are you saying we are alive with Christ and dead with Christ at the same time?
No my friend we do not have two natures. That is just an excuse to hang our sins on instead of taking full responsibility for them. We are the new wine, but we have been left in old wine skins and we are to take control over them until we get our new bodies. Christians sin because they give in to the flesh, not because they still have an old nature. We were raised with Christ and one day we will rule with Him, but until then we are responsible to take control of these bodies and we are given the promise;
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
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James 4:1
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
The lust that war in our members, is again the lust of the old nature we all have to sin. Each and every believer sins, each and every believer has temptation to sin and the spirit warreth with our spirit. The temptation to sin in every believers members comes from mans nature to live in the flesh, in the flesh is that nature to sin.
Paul again emphasizes how we as believers can walk as we did in the past and must check the lust that is in us, that lust coming from the Old Sin Nature in us.
Ephesians 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
The walk of other gentiles the vanity of their mind, the old sin nature is the vanity of our minds.
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
They are blind to the Spiritual truths we as believers have had our eyes open and yet still give into the lust of the flesh (the old sin nature).
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
We have learned a better life with Christ and yet we still give into sin.
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Here we can see Paul clearly showing that all believers must putt off the former conversation (the old sin nature).
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
We have to renew our spiritual mind daily.
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The new man must be continuously put on so we must put off the old man, the old nature sinful man, again daily. Paul speaks of us having to do this to continually do this.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
The devil can bring temptation to us but only to one of us at a time, Satan is not an omnipresent being, he is like the angels because he is an angel.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
How do we grieve the Holy Spirit, we do it by giving into the lust of the OLd Sin Nature.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Throughtout scripture scripture it is clear we must decide to follow God or follow the lust of the flesh, which is the Old Sin Nature.
Back again to Paul in Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The Old Sin Nature and Spiritual Death entered the world through Adam and passed to every human born except one, that being Christ as He had no earthly Father.
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Because of Adams offence many be dead, that is the unbelievers in Spiritual Death.
The believer has been made spiritually alive through Jesus Christ.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Old Sin Nature reigned in our lives until we were saved, now we have a New Spiritual Nature that Wars with the Old Nature.
So scripture makes it very clear every human being living today has the lust of the flesh active in their lives. Believer or unbeliever and that old fleshly nature wars against the New Nature daily.
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
The lust that war in our members, is again the lust of the old nature we all have to sin. Each and every believer sins, each and every believer has temptation to sin and the spirit warreth with our spirit. The temptation to sin in every believers members comes from mans nature to live in the flesh, in the flesh is that nature to sin.
Paul again emphasizes how we as believers can walk as we did in the past and must check the lust that is in us, that lust coming from the Old Sin Nature in us.
Ephesians 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
The walk of other gentiles the vanity of their mind, the old sin nature is the vanity of our minds.
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
They are blind to the Spiritual truths we as believers have had our eyes open and yet still give into the lust of the flesh (the old sin nature).
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
We have learned a better life with Christ and yet we still give into sin.
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Here we can see Paul clearly showing that all believers must putt off the former conversation (the old sin nature).
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
We have to renew our spiritual mind daily.
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The new man must be continuously put on so we must put off the old man, the old nature sinful man, again daily. Paul speaks of us having to do this to continually do this.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
The devil can bring temptation to us but only to one of us at a time, Satan is not an omnipresent being, he is like the angels because he is an angel.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
How do we grieve the Holy Spirit, we do it by giving into the lust of the OLd Sin Nature.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Throughtout scripture scripture it is clear we must decide to follow God or follow the lust of the flesh, which is the Old Sin Nature.
Back again to Paul in Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The Old Sin Nature and Spiritual Death entered the world through Adam and passed to every human born except one, that being Christ as He had no earthly Father.
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Because of Adams offence many be dead, that is the unbelievers in Spiritual Death.
The believer has been made spiritually alive through Jesus Christ.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Old Sin Nature reigned in our lives until we were saved, now we have a New Spiritual Nature that Wars with the Old Nature.
So scripture makes it very clear every human being living today has the lust of the flesh active in their lives. Believer or unbeliever and that old fleshly nature wars against the New Nature daily.
First a Christian does die, Temporal death (i.e loss of fellowship) temporary seperation from the Holy spirits control due to sin, and they stay in that state until tehy confess sin. This can lead to Operational death of the believer, the believer who continues operating in a carnal state are no longer operating in the Spirit (i.e. Operational death). I would suggest you look at the meanings of the different types of death mentioned in the bible.
Next you ask where does the New Nature reside, it resides with the Holy Spirit, as we have been quickened made Spiritually Alive and that Spiritual life is our New Spiritual Nature. That part that was dead in tresspasses and sins.
freeatlast
New Member
1)John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
So there is no loss of fellowship. Unless you do not believe the Lord.
2)Second a Christian cannot turn to live in sin or as you are trying to call it carnal state.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
Unless again you don't believe the Lord.
3)2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So the new nature does not simply reside in the Spirit but we actually become partakers of that nature. There is no old nature. The only thing left is the flesh to battle.
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There is none that doeth good, no not one.
That is what the Bible says, not me. Here is another verse for you.
An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin. (Proverbs 21:4)
--"The plowing of the wicked" To plow a field and eventually reap the grain to feed the people--that also is sin. There is nothing that an unsaved person can do that is good in the eyes of God.
And that simply says "good works" and that is all.
Thus the unsaved can do no good works, and the saved can do good works and that is all--according to what you just said.
Adam was created; you were born. You are not Adam.
Adam was created without sin; you were born in sin, even as David testified in Psalms 51:5. You are called a child of the devil, children of wrath, children of disobedience. You walked according to the prince of the power of the air. You were his child. Thus the necessity of being born again. But the nature that you inherited from Adam, that sin nature was not eradicated. We have proof of that:
If you had no sin nature you wouldn't say the things you say and the tone in which you say them. Take some examples:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1665335&postcount=35
In the above post, Sag38 points out that: “So, in not agreeing with you we are in rebellion in the highest against the Lord.....?”
because of your post:
which of course comes right out of your carnal nature, that Adamic nature you inherited from Adam. It didn’t come from the Holy Spirit, when you accused Robert Snow of “rebellion in the highest order.”
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1662891&postcount=23
I like this really mature answer. It must have come straight from God.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1662849&postcount=9
Another very Godly post, right from the heart of God….
Your ridicule of another poster is noted and that particular post should have been edited.
You attribute these posts to the Holy Spirit?? No my friend; they come from your old nature, your sin nature; your adamic nature, your depraved nature. You are a depraved individual whether you like it or not. We are sinners. All men are sinners. The difference between some of us and most of the world is that some of us are sinners saved by the grace of God.
This has nothing to do with the carnal being lost. It doesn't say that the carnal are lost does it?
Christians do die. No it is not speaking of the lost. You would do well to learn the definition of the word "death." The word "death" in the Bible means "separation."
Physical death is when the body is separated from the spirit.
Spiritual death is when the spirit is separated from God (can be either for the believer or unbeliever)
Eternal death is when the spirit is from God for all eternity.
While on this earth an unsaved person is spiritually dead but has the chance to be alive in Christ. That is why Paul said:
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--They were spiritually dead, not physically dead. Christ made them alive.
When the believer sins he is separated from God by his sin. He doesn't lose his salvation but rather his fellowship. Until he repents or confesses his sin he remains out of fellowship with God. To be out of fellowship with God is to be separated from him. That is spiritual death.
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--He will not hear you because you have separated yourself from Him. You have become dead. You need spiritual life.
The carnal mind (of the Christian) is enmity against God. Does the Bible teach this? Compare Scripture with Scripture:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--James is speaking to Christians. Verse 3 speaks of prayer and verse 5 of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This verse, verse 4, speaks of the worldliness of the Christian, and God says that the friendship of the world is enmity with God. He also says that if you are the friend of the world, you are the enemy of God. Yes, a Christian can be the enemy of God.
Compare with other Scripture:
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15-16)
--Love not the world. All that is of the world is not of the Father. It is not of God. God hates it. It is carnal, of the flesh. God hates the worldliness and carnality of Christians.
And again:
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)
Sin is always against God, whether it come from a Christian or non-Christian. God does not condone sin no matter who it comes from.
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Your objection is moot. A church is made up of individuals. In fact the biblical definition of a church is: an assembly of baptized regenerated individuals who have voluntarily assembled themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (the Great Commission and Baptism). A church, by definition has only saved individuals in it. The first chapter indicates that they are saved calling them saints:
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)
The word is thus defined in the context in which it is used just as most biblical words are.
Paul was addressing problems in the church. One of the problems in the church was carnality--not just one or two members, but among many of the Christians in the church who were living carnal lives. Read chapter 11. Before the Lord's Supper they held a love feast. Some were drunk. They were gluttons. They were divisive. They were carnal. And after this carnal show of the flesh, then they were expected to worship the Lord by having the Lord's Supper?? No way!! Look at verse 30 (11:30). For this reason some of you are weak, sickly, and some of you sleep (are dead). God judged their carnality, their abuse of the Lord's Table, so much so that some of them died. He killed them.
And there are some of the posters on here, though saved, post as if they are not. Sad isn't it?
No that is not true. Some of your posts are carnal. I have posted them for you. But I do not question your salvation.
There is no difference. They were carnal Christians and therefore carnal in their actions.
You are having a problem understanding the spirit world. How much space does a spirit take up?
Remember this scene:
Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. (Mark 5:4)
--This is speaking of the demoniac at the Gadarenes. Remember what his name was? It is Legion. Why? A legion in the Roman army is six thousand. He was inhabited by many demons. Look what happened when Jesus cast them out:
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand
and were choked in the sea. (Mark 5:12-13)--The 2,000 swine would possibly indicate at least 2,000 demons.
They are spirits. How many angels can stand on the end of a pin?
When you speak of a sin nature and the Holy Spirit, space is not a factor.
The old nature is very much alive. It is what caused you to make those carnal posts. It is what causes you to sin. If you didn't have a sin nature you could live a sinless life just like Christ. The reason Christ was born of a virgin was to avoid the sin nature that man inherits from his father. Remember that dead simply means "separated."
When you were separated from God he made you alive (giving you life)
Yes, this is what Christ does when he saves us. He brings us to Himself. We were once separated from Him. Now are we reconciled to Him.
Sin separates us from God. Death is separation.
Romans chapter seven says differently as well as a lot of other Scripture.
I don't make excuses. Do you?
It is both.
We sin because we have a sin nature.
We sin because we want to sin, and we will take responsibility for our actions as well.
That is a promise. God keeps his end of it. He makes a way to escape. You will be able to endure. That doesn't mean you won't sin or won't give into the temptation. It doesn't say that. It is only a promise that God gives you wherein he promises that he will give you the strength to overcome. He doesn't say that you WILL overcome. That is up to you. Many people don't. They give into their temptations and sin. Many are carnal Christians.
freeatlast
New Member
Sin is always against God, whether it come from a Christian or non-Christian. God does not condone sin no matter who it comes from.
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Your objection is moot. A church is made up of individuals. In fact the biblical definition of a church is: an assembly of baptized regenerated individuals who have voluntarily assembled themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (the Great Commission and Baptism). A church, by definition has only saved individuals in it. The first chapter indicates that they are saved calling them saints:
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)
The word is thus defined in the context in which it is used just as most biblical words are.
Paul was addressing problems in the church. One of the problems in the church was carnality--not just one or two members, but among many of the Christians in the church who were living carnal lives. Read chapter 11. Before the Lord's Supper they held a love feast. Some were drunk. They were gluttons. They were divisive. They were carnal. And after this carnal show of the flesh, then they were expected to worship the Lord by having the Lord's Supper?? No way!! Look at verse 30 (11:30). For this reason some of you are weak, sickly, and some of you sleep (are dead). God judged their carnality, their abuse of the Lord's Table, so much so that some of them died. He killed them.
And there are some of the posters on here, though saved, post as if they are not. Sad isn't it?
No that is not true. Some of your posts are carnal. I have posted them for you. But I do not question your salvation.
There is no difference. They were carnal Christians and therefore carnal in their actions.
You are having a problem understanding the spirit world. How much space does a spirit take up?
Remember this scene:
Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. (Mark 5:4)
--This is speaking of the demoniac at the Gadarenes. Remember what his name was? It is Legion. Why? A legion in the Roman army is six thousand. He was inhabited by many demons. Look what happened when Jesus cast them out:
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand
--The 2,000 swine would possibly indicate at least 2,000 demons.
They are spirits. How many angels can stand on the end of a pin?
When you speak of a sin nature and the Holy Spirit, space is not a factor.
The old nature is very much alive. It is what caused you to make those carnal posts. It is what causes you to sin. If you didn't have a sin nature you could live a sinless life just like Christ. The reason Christ was born of a virgin was to avoid the sin nature that man inherits from his father. Remember that dead simply means "separated."
When you were separated from God he made you alive (giving you life)
Yes, this is what Christ does when he saves us. He brings us to Himself. We were once separated from Him. Now are we reconciled to Him.
Sin separates us from God. Death is separation.
Romans chapter seven says differently as well as a lot of other Scripture.
I don't make excuses. Do you?
It is both.
We sin because we have a sin nature.
We sin because we want to sin, and we will take responsibility for our actions as well.
That is a promise. God keeps his end of it. He makes a way to escape. You will be able to endure. That doesn't mean you won't sin or won't give into the temptation. It doesn't say that. It is only a promise that God gives you wherein he promises that he will give you the strength to overcome. He doesn't say that you WILL overcome. That is up to you. Many people don't. They give into their temptations and sin. Many are carnal Christians.
There is no such thing as a carnal Christian and there is no old nature. Both terms are excuses to justify sin and to cover up the truth about someone who is lost.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
After salvation the person no longer has a sin nature. Our battle is with the flesh, not a sin nature.