Are Carnal Christians Those Who Chose to Not Submit To Spirit But To Flesh?

[revmwc]

1)John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
So there is no loss of fellowship. Unless you do not believe the Lord.

First on must define which of the seven deaths this is speaking of. We know it isn't physical because believers do die physically, once you are born Spiritually you never die Spiritually again. Now let's put the preceeding and the following verse for context, 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ becom Spiritually alive, and we will be ressurected if we die prior to the Lords return. While our physical body is dead and buried we are alive in heaven, both the Soul and Spirit live with God. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So the Soul and Spirit of the believer are living if they have suffered physical death.

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? So those who believe on Christ will never die Spiritually nor will they die the second death. So yes a believer can die the Temporal death, lose of fellowship. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" We must confess to restore fellowship. God will not hear any prayer from a believer if they haven't confessed their sin, the first thing any believer must do is confess their sin. James 4: 1 "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The lust and sin comes from the Old Sin Nature and when you have sin dominating your life you ask amiss unto you humble yourself in the sight of the Lord (i.e. you confess sin). Then He will lift you up, until you do that you have temporarily lost fellowship and temprarily lost the filling of the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit still indwells you, but He no longer controls you when you have unconfessed sin in your life.


2)Second a Christian cannot turn to live in sin or as you are trying to call it carnal state.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God. They do not continue to practice sin, that doesn't mean that they don't sin and it doesn't mean they have no Old Sin Nature. However a person can turn from sin at salvation believe on Christ and then go back to a life of sin.
Unless again you don't believe the Lord.
So you want to throw out most of the New Testament teachings of Paul, especially when it comes to teaching of eternal rewards.

1 Corinthians 3:
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
At some point when a believer has continued in sin long enough and only God knows that point God will allow them to die the sin unto death.
1 COrithians 5: 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
The believer turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but the Spirit is saved in the DAy of The Lord. That person though taken out of this life by the sin unto death has their Spiritual life intact. Again you want to through out all of Paul's teaching or discount what he is saying to fit your theology. It simply doesn't fit.


3)2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So the new nature does not simply reside in the Spirit but we actually become partakers of that nature. There is no old nature. The only thing left is the flesh to battle.

The Spiritual life has escaped corruption (death) the physical life doesn't escape destruction. We all die unless we are alive when the Lord returns. Peter is again speaking in terms of the Spiritual life of the believer. Everyone who recives the Lord Jesus as saviour partakes in the precious promise of eternal life with God the Father, will not die the second death, and has in them the new Spiritual life (nature) but they also retain the old flesh the Old Nature and it's lust. The believer escapes the corruption (death) that the unbeliever will suffer in eternity, that being the second death.

Again you must define which death is spoken of and if you get that wrong then your theology is off.

 

[freeatlast]

The Spiritual life has escaped corruption (death) the physical life doesn't escape destruction. We all die unless we are alive when the Lord returns. Peter is again speaking in terms of the Spiritual life of the believer. Everyone who recives the Lord Jesus as saviour partakes in the precious promise of eternal life with God the Father, will not die the second death, and has in them the new Spiritual life (nature) but they also retain the old flesh the Old Nature and it's lust. The believer escapes the corruption (death) that the unbeliever will suffer in eternity, that being the second death.

Again you must define which death is spoken of and if you get that wrong then your theology is off.

It is not about defining which death, but about what death is.

 

[revmwc]

It is not about defining which death, but about what death is.

Death is separation from something. The carnal believer having died the temporal death is seperated from fellowship with God. The believer who has died the Operational death has been seperated from Operating in God's will.
The person who has died the sexual death is seperated from the abiltiy to perform sexually.
The person who is born is dead spiritually, seperated from spiritual life.
The person who dies the second death is seperated from God for eternity.
The person who has died physically has had a seperation of body and soul and if they are a believer the soul and spirit are seperated from the body.

So it is important to define which death you speak of as each one is seperation from something.

 

[freeatlast]

Death is separation from something. The carnal believer having died the temporal death is seperated from fellowship with God. The believer who has died the Operational death has been seperated from Operating in God's will.
The person who has died the sexual death is seperated from the abiltiy to perform sexually.
The person who is born is dead spiritually, seperated from spiritual life.
The person who dies the second death is seperated from God for eternity.
The person who has died physically has had a seperation of body and soul and if they are a believer the soul and spirit are seperated from the body.

So it is important to define which death you speak of as each one is seperation from something.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[revmwc]

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe I will never die Spiritually again yes. Do you believe this? And I believe I will have a ressurected body just as Christ had which means ressurection from physical death do you believe this? That was Christ question.
So whether Spiritual we will never die again Spiritually. Physical death we may die but we will be raised to a new ressurected life. That is what Christ was saying.
Can I be temporally seperated by sin from fellowship with God you bet I can, can I stop operating by the guidence of the Holy Spirit, according to scripture I can thus operational death.
So when you use scripture you must know what it is refering too. Since their are different types of death you must know what type the specific scripture is refering too. The one you quote Christ was askingabout the ressurection life we will have when He returns. It has nothing to do with whether we as believers can die other types of death. So you must define the type of death that is being refered too.

 

[DHK]

There is no such thing as a carnal Christian and there is no old nature. Both terms are excuses to justify sin and to cover up the truth about someone who is lost.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
After salvation the person no longer has a sin nature. Our battle is with the flesh, not a sin nature.

Is this the best you can do--an affirmation of a falsehood. I gave you Scripture after Scripture and you give me an opinion which is not true. You don't back it up with Scripture. You simply affirm by your own authority that it is true. If you say something often enough, keep repeating it, you will believe it no matter how wrong it is. Is this what you have done?

"There is no such thing as a carnal Christian"
Paul states there is. Writing to the Corinthian Christians he plainly says: You are carnal.
Why the denial of the Word of God? You have convinced yourself that you are right and the Bible is wrong.

"There is no such thing as an old nature."
Yet in many of Paul's epistles he explains the constant warfare that we have to put off "the old man" and put on "the new man." Why is that? We have an old nature, which that old man refers to.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:22-24)
Though this is something done initially done in the past it must be repeated.

(Col 3:8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
--Were all these sins put off at salvation? Perhaps. But have you committed any of them since? Yes. Have you been angry? Malice is railing on someone, ill-will, or desire to injure. Again and again we must put to death, put off the old man. We are not free from sin.
It continues in verse 9

(Col 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
You have put off the old man, and you must continue to do so. If the old man was eradicated completely you would never lie again as the verse teaches. Are you completely free from telling lies?

Paul says: "you are carnal" (1Cor.3:1-4). He says it four times in that one passage. In effect you call him a liar. You don't believe him. You deny this passage of Scripture because you want to hold on to some pre-conceived idea which is a falsehood that you are propagating. Why would you do that?
There are indeed carnal Christians.

 

[revmwc]

Death is separation from something. The person who has died the sexual death is seperated from the abiltiy to perform sexually.

Sorry mispoke it seperation of the ability to reproduce, I believe it is termed menapuse in our society.

 

[freeatlast]

Is this the best you can do--an affirmation of a falsehood. I gave you Scripture after Scripture and you give me an opinion which is not true. You don't back it up with Scripture. You simply affirm by your own authority that it is true. If you say something often enough, keep repeating it, you will believe it no matter how wrong it is. Is this what you have done?

"There is no such thing as a carnal Christian"
Paul states there is. Writing to the Corinthian Christians he plainly says: You are carnal.
Why the denial of the Word of God? You have convinced yourself that you are right and the Bible is wrong.

"There is no such thing as an old nature."
Yet in many of Paul's epistles he explains the constant warfare that we have to put off "the old man" and put on "the new man." Why is that? We have an old nature, which that old man refers to.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:22-24)
Though this is something done initially done in the past it must be repeated.

(Col 3:8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
--Were all these sins put off at salvation? Perhaps. But have you committed any of them since? Yes. Have you been angry? Malice is railing on someone, ill-will, or desire to injure. Again and again we must put to death, put off the old man. We are not free from sin.
It continues in verse 9

(Col 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
You have put off the old man, and you must continue to do so. If the old man was eradicated completely you would never lie again as the verse teaches. Are you completely free from telling lies?

Paul says: "you are carnal" (1Cor.3:1-4). He says it four times in that one passage. In effect you call him a liar. You don't believe him. You deny this passage of Scripture because you want to hold on to some pre-conceived idea which is a falsehood that you are propagating. Why would you do that?
There are indeed carnal Christians.

Like I said there is no old nature in the believer. We are left with the flesh to deal with.

 

[freeatlast]

I believe I will never die Spiritually again yes. Do you believe this? And I believe I will have a ressurected body just as Christ had which means ressurection from physical death do you believe this? That was Christ question.
So whether Spiritual we will never die again Spiritually. Physical death we may die but we will be raised to a new ressurected life. That is what Christ was saying.
Can I be temporally seperated by sin from fellowship with God you bet I can, can I stop operating by the guidence of the Holy Spirit, according to scripture I can thus operational death.
So when you use scripture you must know what it is refering too. Since their are different types of death you must know what type the specific scripture is refering too. The one you quote Christ was askingabout the ressurection life we will have when He returns. It has nothing to do with whether we as believers can die other types of death. So you must define the type of death that is being refered too.

I explained what I believe and a believer cannot be seperatd from fellowship as thta is man's teaching not God's. The Lord clearly stated He would never leave us or forsake us. Also a true believer cannot turn to the practice of sin.

 

[DHK]

Like I said there is no old nature in the believer. We are left with the flesh to deal with.

That flesh is the old nature. It is the sin nature that you struggle with. You will never get rid of it until the resurrection.
Think of this: a combination of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and a few other elements do not contain sin. You do not struggle with the elements of nature. That is not your "flesh" as the Bible refers to it. When the Bible refers to the "flesh" it refers to your sin nature, the one that you inherited from Adam. When the Bible refers to struggling with your flesh it does not refer to a paper cut, a nose bleed, allergies, etc. It refers directly to the sin nature--the one inherited from Adam.

 

[Iconoclast]

If I may let me use your terminology
You have some flaws with your philosophy as stated above

1) First your theory is like saying a lost person with only a sin nature can not do outward good. We all know that is not true. While their deeds are not accepted by God outwardly they still can do some good things. Also the fact that The Spirit dwells in us does not mean we become God, only that we have the power to accomplish what He has ordained and that is spelled out in Eph 2. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2) Certainly I sin from time to time, but not because of an old nature. I have to go against the nature that I have been given to do the sin. Just like Adam who went against his created nature. That is why it is so painful.

Where does the Bible teach that the carnal are lost. This is a presupposition on your part.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Notice that little word death. A Christian never dies. That is speaking of the lost.

verse 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice again the carnal are against God. This is not a Christian as the Christian is for God. 2Cor 3:8
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

1 Corinthians 3:1 In Paul is dealing with the church at Corinth it is not an individual but the whole church. In Romans when the term carnal is used it is speaking on the individual and when the term is put on an individual it refers to being lost. In the case of Corinth when Paul uses the term he is addressing the whole church and yes he calls them carnal as a church as in comparing them to the lost.
It would be like someone coming on this board for the first time and reading many of the posts here. They could easily accuse this board as being carnal and never mean that the board was lost, but acting like the lost. However if they came on here and singled out a person and called them carnal they would be saying they are lost from a biblical standpoint.
The church at Corinth was carnal in their actions, but the people were saved. That is the difference.

Now back to the first;
If you still have the Adamic nature, along with new nature, then you run into a number of theological problems:

1) I would have to ask you where does your new nature reside? Are you saying that the Spirit is sharing a place with the fallen nature?
2)The old nature was the nature of a dead man. Are you saying we are still dead or dead and alive at the same time?
3)Eph Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened
1) to make one alive together
a) of Christians, with Christ
us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Are you saying we are alive with Christ and dead with Christ at the same time?

No my friend we do not have two natures. That is just an excuse to hang our sins on instead of taking full responsibility for them. We are the new wine, but we have been left in old wine skins and we are to take control over them until we get our new bodies. Christians sin because they give in to the flesh, not because they still have an old nature. We were raised with Christ and one day we will rule with Him, but until then we are responsible to take control of these bodies and we are given the promise;
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Good post....these two men have bought into this erroneous idea.
This is an area of scripture that is important to study...as the posts show how much confusion is out there.
They believe a christian is a bi-polar schizophrenic struggling with two natures,rather than a new man commanded to mortify the flesh.
John Owen is very good on this in his book sin and temptation

 

[DHK]

Good post....these two men have bought into this erroneous idea.
This is an area of scripture that is important to study...as the posts show how much confusion is out there.
They believe a christian is a bi-polar schizophrenic struggling with two natures,rather than a new man commanded to mortify the flesh.
John Owen is very good on this in his book sin and temptation

No, that is not what we believe. So, why say it?
When you sin, is it because the Holy Spirit prompts you to sin, or is it because your flesh (old nature, sin nature, carnal nature, old man, etc.) prompts you to sin?
Or, are you perfect, having attained sinless perfection. If so, how do you account for 1John 1:8,10.
Which is it Icon? Sin comes from the Holy Spirit?
Perfection before the resurrection?
You offer no satisfactory explanation for yourself, and end up attributing your sin to the Holy Spirit, which is somewhat blasphemous, don't you think???

 

[Iconoclast]

No, that is not what we believe. So, why say it?
When you sin, is it because the Holy Spirit prompts you to sin, or is it because your flesh (old nature, sin nature, carnal nature, old man, etc.) prompts you to sin?
Or, are you perfect, having attained sinless perfection. If so, how do you account for 1John 1:8,10.
Which is it Icon? Sin comes from the Holy Spirit?
Perfection before the resurrection?
You offer no satisfactory explanation for yourself, and end up attributing your sin to the Holy Spirit, which is somewhat blasphemous, don't you think???

Paul explains it in Romans 7....
[QUOTEFor I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

][/QUOTE]
I believe Paul in Romans 6,7,8, without contradiction

Which is it Icon? Sin comes from the Holy Spirit?
Perfection before the resurrection?
You offer no satisfactory explanation for yourself, and end up attributing your sin to the Holy Spirit, which is somewhat blasphemous, don't you think???[/

DHK.....it is your ungodly suggestion ,inference,and slander that I would even suggest such an ungodly thought. I have offered teaching and explanations that you are unable or unwilling to grasp. I am sorry that you do not get it.

Again...unless you can show anywhere that I said this, you need to repent of making this kind of false charge.

 

[revmwc]

Good post....these two men have bought into this erroneous idea.
This is an area of scripture that is important to study...as the posts show how much confusion is out there.
They believe a christian is a bi-polar schizophrenic struggling with two natures,rather than a new man commanded to mortify the flesh.
John Owen is very good on this in his book sin and temptation

Paul must have believed a Christian is bi-polar by your definition He tells the Romans believers in Romans 6: 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

That they are not to yield to the OLD MAN, THE FLESH, not to be SERVANTS to SIN. All through this Paul makes it very clear we still have an Old Nature the old desire in us to sin.

He wrote the believers at Ephesus that they should walk in the Spirit not in their old conversation (i.e. their sinfulness). Put off the old sinful nature and walk in the New Spiritual Man.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Paul is very clear here Believers can put on the old sinful man (i.e the sinful nature).

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

so if you say that we introduce a bi-polar Christian you are saying Paul taught it also and therefore you must discount Paul's writing and therefore the majority of the New Testament. It doesn't fit your doctrinal beliefs.

You would also have to discount The Apostle Peter as teaching of a bi-polar schizophrenic believer. We see in 1st Peter 2: 9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Verse 11 says abstain from fleshly lust (i.e. the Old Sin Nature) which war against the soul. The war is the War of the two nature in us. So now you must throw out Peters writing also.

 

[freeatlast]

That flesh is the old nature. It is the sin nature that you struggle with. You will never get rid of it until the resurrection.
Think of this: a combination of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and a few other elements do not contain sin. You do not struggle with the elements of nature. That is not your "flesh" as the Bible refers to it. When the Bible refers to the "flesh" it refers to your sin nature, the one that you inherited from Adam. When the Bible refers to struggling with your flesh it does not refer to a paper cut, a nose bleed, allergies, etc. It refers directly to the sin nature--the one inherited from Adam.

No, the flesh is not the old nature. A dog has a nature to turn and lick up its vomit. A hog has a nature to wallow in a mire. A lost person has a nature to sin, go against God. All these examples are what is natural by birth to each example. In the case of a sinner (lost person) the nature feeds off the flesh. Both the flesh and the nature are in agreement.
For the human who is born again it is no longer natural for them to sin. A Christians does not sin because it is their nature. Thye sin because they give into the flesh, but it comes with a price. Old things are passed away and all things have become new. This false teaching that we have an old sin nature is why Paul is so upset in Romans. People using a belief and term to justify their sin and in this case "old sin nature." Listen to the Spirit through Paul;

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid! How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (let me point out that the old nature is dead, but the flesh is still alive. New wine (the new nature) has been put into old wineskins (the flesh) and one day they will burst and new wines skins will be given.)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ( I need to point out something here. The word should is not in the Greek and it makes the passage sound different then is intended. It is not saying we should walk like this, but many do not. It is saying we who are born again walk like this. The new birth requires a new walk.)
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man (this is the sin nature) is crucified with [him], that the body of sin (this is the flesh) might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

At salvation the old nature died. That man died with Christ! This is part of the symbolism of water baptism. It is no longer the nature of the believer to sin. However we are left with the flesh which we are responsible to control and not it us. This is why it is so uncomfortable for a believer to sin. We have to go against our nature and give into the flesh and the flesh is very seductive. However we have a promise that we will not be tempted so greatly that we have to give in.
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
So there is no old sin nature in a believer, but we yet reside in these corruptible bodies and we have the ability to control them and are expected to do so.

 

[revmwc]

I explained what I believe and a believer cannot be seperatd from fellowship as thta is man's teaching not God's. The Lord clearly stated He would never leave us or forsake us. Also a true believer cannot turn to the practice of sin.

God makes it very clear if sin is in the life of the believer He will not hear His prayer, that is lose of fellowship.

Psalm66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

John makes it clear also in Revelation 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

God chastens the sinning believer to get Him to repent.

Hebrews 3:
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Believers seperated from God's fellowship through a hardened heart because the deceitfulness of sin, these are in operational death they are no longer operating in the New Man under the Control of the New Nature but are operating in the flesh, Operational death.

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Every believer has a besseting sin, one that is very hard to stop doing.

Hebrews 12: 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Again when you are seperated from God's fellowship He is chastening you and when you repent that fellowship is restored.
While you have sin in your life God will not hear your prayer until you confess that is lose of fellowship.

 

[freeatlast]

God makes it very clear if sin is in the life of the believer He will not hear His prayer, that is lose of fellowship.

Psalm66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

John makes it clear also in Revelation 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

God chastens the sinning believer to get Him to repent.

Hebrews 3:
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Believers seperated from God's fellowship through a hardened heart because the deceitfulness of sin, these are in operational death they are no longer operating in the New Man under the Control of the New Nature but are operating in the flesh, Operational death.

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Every believer has a besseting sin, one that is very hard to stop doing.

Hebrews 12: 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Again when you are seperated from God's fellowship He is chastening you and when you repent that fellowship is restored.
While you have sin in your life God will not hear your prayer until you confess that is lose of fellowship.

Not answering prayer is not a loss of fellowship. He is still with us every day and never leaves. He just does not answer our prayers as he would if we have any sin in our lives.
Hebrews 3 is about a lost person not a saved person.

Hebrews 12:1 is also about a lost person. The weight is there unbelief. You will never understand the book of Hebrews without understanding Leviticus. Also the book was written to the Jew.
So the believer cannot lose fellowship with God as he will never leave us or forsake us. Chastening proves fellowship although painful.

 

[revmwc]

David made it fairly clear that we have a sin nature.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

We have in us sin and iniquity from birth.

 

[freeatlast]

David made it fairly clear that we have a sin nature.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

We have in us sin and iniquity from birth.

Yes and salvation gives us a new nature because the old one dies with Christ.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So david confirms we are born with a sin nature and paul confirms it dies with Christ at the new birth where we get a new nature. Thanks for the passage. :thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Is this the best you can do--an affirmation of a falsehood. I gave you Scripture after Scripture and you give me an opinion which is not true. You don't back it up with Scripture. You simply affirm by your own authority that it is true. If you say something often enough, keep repeating it, you will believe it no matter how wrong it is. Is this what you have done?

"There is no such thing as a carnal Christian"
Paul states there is. Writing to the Corinthian Christians he plainly says: You are carnal.
Why the denial of the Word of God? You have convinced yourself that you are right and the Bible is wrong.

"There is no such thing as an old nature."
Yet in many of Paul's epistles he explains the constant warfare that we have to put off "the old man" and put on "the new man." Why is that? We have an old nature, which that old man refers to.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:22-24)
Though this is something done initially done in the past it must be repeated.

(Col 3:8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
--Were all these sins put off at salvation? Perhaps. But have you committed any of them since? Yes. Have you been angry? Malice is railing on someone, ill-will, or desire to injure. Again and again we must put to death, put off the old man. We are not free from sin.
It continues in verse 9

(Col 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
You have put off the old man, and you must continue to do so. If the old man was eradicated completely you would never lie again as the verse teaches. Are you completely free from telling lies?

Paul says: "you are carnal" (1Cor.3:1-4). He says it four times in that one passage. In effect you call him a liar. You don't believe him. You deny this passage of Scripture because you want to hold on to some pre-conceived idea which is a falsehood that you are propagating. Why would you do that?
There are indeed carnal Christians.

Interesting that those of us here claiming to have just the new nature in Christ, purged of their old sinful nature are saying something thast Apostles peter, John, and paul knew nothing about....
Also, didn't Jesus still retain dual natures, even though he was very God?
Also, what would paul be referring to when he described the resurrected glorified body of the Christian? Wouldn't that be time when we fully put of the Flesh and sin nature that dwells within us?