Are Carnal Christians Those Who Chose to Not Submit To Spirit But To Flesh?

macArthur
Sproll,
jeremiah

 

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown, on Romans 8:6

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)

Death is not synonymous with hell; it never was. To assume as much is to do an injustice to Scripture.

 

Freeatlast,
Take a look back here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1666034&postcount=62

I spent a lot of time answering your post (as is evident by its length), and you brushed it off with one curt statement. Why not answer the post instead.

 

How about J. Vernon Magee?

 

I simply disagree. The passage is speaking of two different class’ of people. One has life and peace. They are those who are saved and on the way to heaven.
The second is those who are characterized with the word death. They are dead in their sins and trespasses and are on the way to hell.

 

That is simply your opinion. But Paul is speaking to Christians, and he is speaking from the standpoint of eternal security which he starts off with in verse one.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) [ASV]
--Starting from this foundational verse and framework, he proceeds through one of the most glorious chapters in the Bible that speak of our relationship with Christ, and then triumphantly ends with:

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

There is nothing that can separate the believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord--nothing!
--This chapter was not written to, or, about the lost.
It was written to believers.

 

J. Vernon MaGee:
"The interesting thing is that the carnal mind is not subject to the Law of God, nor can it be.
Not only is our old nature an enemy against God, but it always will be that; it cannot be subject to the Law of God, and it never will be. God never has had an arrangement to save the old nature. He does not intend to save the old nature at all.
Now do not misunderstand me about this old nature that we have. All of us have it, we were born with it, and you would be surprised how limited that old nature is. I do not know about you, but when I was born into this world, I was born ignorant. I didn’t even know A from B, nor did I know anything about manners at all. You talk about being in the darkness, we certainly are
when we first arrive. I read recently a quotation from one of the latest scientific books in which it was pointed out that humans are the only creatures born into this world helpless and that we
don’t know how to do anything except one thing — weep. That is all we can do without being taught! We have to be taught everything else. That’s the old nature."...."This old nature that we were born with is against God. It will blaspheme, turn its back on
God, deny Him in a minute. I’ve got a nature right now that, if it were not for His marvelous
grace, would deny Him within the next five minutes. But, don’t worry, I’ve found God’s grace
sufficient. Yet I have that old nature, and you have an old nature. We’d better reckon on it. We
had better realize that we have it.
Now God has no arrangement to salvage the old nature. God says it will finally die, but we
won’t lose it until we die physically. God has no program to restore old natures.
This is the reason He has given us a new nature, one that can become obedient unto God. One
characteristic of the new nature is that it can be obedient unto God — but it needs empowering
— it needs the Holy Spirit. So Paul says here:
So, then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8)"

 

This is not the first thing that Dr. Magee was wrong about. We do not have an old nature.

 

Perpetuating a falsehood will never make it true.
It just won't work.
How can you deny evidence so clearly set before you?

 

because there is no scripture that teaches we have an old nature. We battle the flesh. In fact there is no scripture that teaches we have a sin nature at all. Those words are not in the bible. We died in Christ. We are to live in newness of life. What we do is totally our choice, and not hindered by some nature. I realize thta without the claim of an old nature to hang some of the responsibility of our sins on we stand totally naked before God, but that is the way it is. We choose to sin after salvation even without a sin nature just like Adam did who had no sin nature when he sinned.

 

DHK,

I will try again....have you listened to the sermons yet??? or still to busy?

1]

I am perfect In Christ.....but still able to sin while in this body ,as Paul explains in rom7. I obey 1jn 8-10.
2]

As I already posted;read the post where i posted romans 7

Before a person is saved,they live in a body that is able to sin,with sinful appetites.All of the fruits of the flesh are available to them.
Their carnal mind being hostile to God desires and plans on how to sin.
When the sinner gets saved,The new heart and new nature is no longer the slave of sin,but is alive unto God's righteous law word.This christian is still in a body that is able to sin...but no longer bound to sin.
Instead of desiring sin he desires holiness in his mind and heart and seeks to mortify all known sin. Anyone who does not struggle against sin,is not God's child. A christian cannot practice sin,grieving the Spirit of God as you propose.
All christians sin, but like Paul in romans 7 they strive against it daily.
3]

How can you even suggest something like this? This tells me something is radically defective in your understanding of God,and His word.
The only thing I can think of is this....when it comes to this topic being discussed..this issue...DHK.....you are yet carnal!
Let me apply your pet passage to you DHK:

See how the passage works DHK. If you would listen to the three sermons I offered you would see how the different words were used properly.

There can be carnality,worldly attitudes,fleshly temptation and thoughts... but a true christian resists them daily.....he does not live in them so that you can say..oh so and so is a worldly christian...he has not discovered the secret of the Spirit filled life...like the 4 spiritual flaws tract used to teach where the "carnal"christian had self on the throne

4]

Satan is described as the accuser of the brethren...you because of massive defects in your theology cannot follow the posts.....so you offer this vile idea of sin somehow coming from God! This is pathetic on your part.It is beyond me that you could even type this vile idea.[several times]
You profess that you know God.....how could you even bring this up or let your mind go down this path? Do not blame me saying you have no choice but to think this...it is your thought that you have typed several times, you own it and repent.Let me say it clearly as I can....You will never see me post such a wicked idea as if there is any sin in God,or God in anyway causes sin.

You are not able to grasp bible truth here evidently...[you think I cannot,ok fine] but do not attribute this sinful thought of yours to me or my theology.

Sorry , I cannot help you but you do not want an answer here.

 

Thank you for your answers Iconoclast.

OK, we can agree there.

That sounds like a reasonable answer, more reasonable than you have been giving me. I like your last statement. "All Christians sin, but like Paul in Romans 7 they strive against it daily."

Now in Romans 7, Paul tells us where the sin comes from.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14)
--When he struggles with sin, he admits his carnality.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)
--By flesh he means flesh nature, that sin nature that we still retain when we get saved. There is nothing good in it. It always wars against the new nature that we get when we get saved.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
--Paul has a choice to make.
1. He can serve the law of God with the mind. or,
2. He can serve the law of sin with the flesh--the flesh nature, the sin nature. It is not the pound of flesh sold in the markets that is referred to here.

No; I just laid out the possibilities that you were giving me. A denial of the sin nature, and claiming only one nature as Christ had would lead to blaming everything on God. That is where logic would lead us. But you admit to having a struggle with sin like Paul did in Romans 7, so that puts this argument to rest. No need to look at it any further.

Look over 1Cor.3:1-4 again, just as you quoted it to me. They were addressed as brethren. He calls them carnal. Why? They were doing carnal things. Therefore they were carnal Christians. At the time of Paul's writing they were carnal Christians. Did they repent? Yes, I believe they did. Did they remain carnal Christians? No, I don't believe they did. Paul doesn't have to deal with those same problems again when he writes his second epistle to them. They had become more mature by then and were able to eat spiritual meat. Every Christian grows at a different rate.

Previously you have denied having a sin nature [several times]. Now you have agreed with Paul as per Romans 7, where Paul states he has a sin nature and describes how he struggles against it.

Let me remind you: it was you that brought up the idea of not having any sin nature at all. If that were true where would sin originate from. That is my basic question.

 

In 25 verses of Romans 7 Paul uses the first person singular, I, 16 different times. He is speaking of himself, his own testimony, his own Christian testimony, his struggles with sin as a Christian. He states that he is carnal sold under sin. Every Christian comes to that point in his life. The more Godly a person is the more quickly he readily accepts how guilty he is in the sight of God. Paul saw it very clearly. He could all but claim that he was the chief of sinners. This conclusion was not from academic study. The closer one stands to the light the more clearly the dirt shows up. Paul stood so close, very close to the Light, he could not help but seeing the dirt in his soul; the transgression of the law, those things that warred against his mind.

Chapter 8 speaks of our relationship with Christ. Interestingly enough, though it have 39 verses compared to chapter seven's 25, the first person singular, I, is only used twice in that chapter, and then only in the last two verses to express his testimony that, "I am persuaded that...nothing shall separate us from the love of God."

 

John Wallvoord,

"Man’s Inadequacy
Those who become Christians by faith in Christ soon discover that being born again does not automatically solve all their spiritual problems. Satan, who has done everything he can to keep a person from becoming a Christian, now changes his tactics to keeping a Christian from achieving a real testimony for Christ.

1. The Christian is faced with a world system that is contrary to serving the Lord. The world’s standards, its values, its immorality, and its materialism constitute a formidable opposition to a Christian who wants to serve the Lord effectively.

2. Satan also will do all he can to keep a Christian from fulfilling God’s plan for his life. Christians, accordingly, are exhorted to “be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings” (1 Peter 5:8-9).

3. In addition to satanic opposition, which can be very real in a Christian’s life, we still have a sin nature. Even though we are born again and have a new nature in Christ, the sin nature resists the desires and goals of the new nature. What we were before we were saved tends to draw us back into the old life, which does not honor Christ. This is not a peculiar problem for some Christians; it is a problem for all Christians. The apostle Paul speaks of this when he states, “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it” (Rom. 7:18-20). After further discussion of this problem, Paul concludes “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Rom. 7:24-25).

The answer to this inadequacy of human beings to solve their own problems, even after they are saved, is found in God’s provision for power over sin and the power to have victory in Christ. To accomplish the purpose of a Christian leading a holy life, God has made rich provision."

 

Yes I understand the problem I have when I say he was not speaking of himself as a Christian when the Greek is looked at, but for him to literally be speaking of himself totally contradicts his earlier statements in Romans as well as in other books of the bible. In one place he actually said that under the law he was blameless and if you look the Greek word up for blameless it means he kept the law and I believe he did. So I do not believe he was now wrestling with sin after conversion.
Also as I mentioned in Romans 6 I find it extremely difficult for him to say this and be living a carnal life as you put it
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Also for Paul to say just one chapter prior makes no sense if he is in sin and carnal while he says this. it makes it void;
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So the idea that he is literally using himself as a Christian I simply reject. As you know even though he was writing to Rome Paul has a great heart for the Jews and he even speaks directly to them in Rome in this letter. I believe he is doing it here again.
I believe he is speaking of what the Jew experiences under the law before they are saved and Paul uses himself as the one speaking so as to relate. Several years ago I studied the Jew a little of that century and sought to put myself the best I could in the shoes of a 1st century Jew and understand how they felt and what they wrestled with under the law. In regards to sin they felt exactly what Paul describes for an unconverted Jew.
While the Jew might have rejected their messiah they were zealous in righteousness and they also had the great battle with the flesh. With their minds they served the law, but with their flesh sin. Christians are not serving the law. We are not under the law. So I believe that Paul uses the first person singular to relate with them yet referring to what it is like for a zealous lost Jew under the law.

So I find it difficult to believe that in Chapter 6 he exhorts to live holy and above sin to the believer and in chapter 7 he would be saying of himself at present he was not doing it. I just don't buy it.
Let me say one more thing. I know no of one who is considered a reputable bible teacher who holds my view. At least am not aware of any. They all hold yours a least in some manner. So I am aware that I am on thin ice at least when considering the scholars, but in this case I must stay with what I hold or I condemn my own conscience while praying that if I am wrong that the Lord will show me and if I am right He show others.

 

DHK,

Well...ok ..we are sorting it out somewhat! I thought you were going over the edge...but maybe it is as you say somewhat a problem of semantics and communication.
We all sin...but God is working in christians and everyone does mature at different rates...I agree there.You also say that you do not believe they remained in this "state of carnality"....that is what I was getting at.
I have heard sermons and read booklets that suggest this is possible,[remaining in carnality ,grieving the Spirit for years} but that clearly denies the sanctifcation by the Spirit.


Revmac, earlier you said that christians have a new spirit, but a dead soul??? I do not think this is accurate. you are trying to over work the verses in James...but at the expense of this:

 

Please let me know what post I would never have said the soul was dead. I believe what you read might have been a question about the Old Sin Nature, since it is contained in the soul does that mean the sould died too? Because as the soul is who we are it is our being, all we are and ever have been is part of our soul. The New Nature the Spiritual nature is in the Human Spirit that is alive in each of us and it is the place where the Holy Spirit dwells.
Just as a side note since the Holy Spirit now endwells the believer then the believer cannot be demon possessed, the place the demon possesses is now occupied by the Holy spirit. Now I believe a believer can be demon influenced if they let sin abound in them too long. I also believe that if one as a believer stays in sin long enough God will turn them over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but they are still saved they just die the sin unto death. Those would be other threads to discuss though.
This one is about a Carnal believer, it is clear from 1 Cor. 3 that when we are at the BEMA Seat judgement and receive rewards many believers who did nothing will have only wood, hay and stubble for their lives as christians and they are saved as through the fire.
It seems that the man who was in the state of adultry that Paul dealt with in 1 Cor. had repented and the Corinthians were told to restore such a one. So he did turn from his sin and carnal state to return to service and he did not die from the sin unto death. So yes the Corinthians took hold of the teachin and admonition of Paul and turned from their wicked carnal state.

 

Please take the time to accurately differentiate between the terms "the flesh" and "the old nature," or sin nature. A careful study of Scripture will reveal that there isn't any.

 

Yes, I think we have made some headway. Let's look as some other examples.

Lot was a carnal Christian, as I would define him. We don't know how long he lived that way in the city of Sodom, but apparently it was a long time. Eventually the Lord delivered "just Lot." Perhaps sometime after that, and after the incident of his drunkenness he began to live a Godly life. We don't have too much information on his life after that period of time.

Another good example is the man in 2Cor.5:1-5 who committed incest (fornication with his father's wife). This had been going on for some time, and the Corinthians were "puffed up" or proud about it. It was so serious a sin that it was not even committed among the Corinthian Gentiles and the Corinthians were known for their wickedness. This believer was a carnal Christian living in gross sin. Paul instructed the church to put him out of the church--to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. The goal was two-fold: Reconciliation to the church, and repentance of the believer. We find later in 2Cor. that this person did repent and was admitted back into the church. The actions of the church did save him from punishment from the Lord.

There is a picture of carnality in 1Cor.11 when the Christians were meeting together before the celebration of the Lord's Supper. They were gluttonous and some were even drunk. Paul shamed them. He said: "Don't you have houses to eat and drink in." This was a display of their divisiveness. The rich ate with the rich and they left the poor alone, not willing to share with them. The consequence is given in verse 30--some were weak, some were sick, and some had died. Why? They were carnal Christians acting carnal just before taking the Lord's Supper. They weren't taking it seriously.

This book was written to correct these problems. It was a carnal church (1Cor.3:1-5) and Paul writes and deals with one problem at a time.
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