Are Carnal Christians Those Who Chose to Not Submit To Spirit But To Flesh?

[freeatlast]

Spiritual death passed onto all men.
If you say sin entered the world how would you sin just because Adam sinned. Adam sin is not laid to your charge, and yet you sin, you have the desire to sin and that desire comes from somewhere, where does it come from? All have sinned the passage says why? Why would you sin if it is not in your nature to sin? If it is in your nature to sin and you only have a new nature then why do you sin?
What is the driving force in your sinning, if it is not a Sin Nature in you then what is it?
You say the flesh, that is just another term for you nature. Adam passed on the human traits we have to us from father to father the traits and human ideas come. The son takes on the nature of his father and our human fathers nature was to sin. Even once they were saved they continued in sin, why?

We do not have an old sin nature. The bible never teaches we do. We have the flesh and we are promised we will not be tempted above what wee can handle. We are new creations, and ALL things have passed away, not some things.

 

[freeatlast]

There are plenty of nations in this world that eat dog. They eat the meat. That is "flesh." There is nothing inherently evil in the flesh of a dog. Dogs are not evil. God created all his creation and looked at it and claimed that it was very good. That included dogs. It was man that fell; man that sinned; man that acquired a sin nature. A dog doesn't have a spirit like man. Your example does not fit. There is nothing sinful in meat (flesh). Every time you sit down to eat: steak, hamburger, chicken, etc., are you eating sin? All of that is flesh--the flesh of an animal. Flesh is not sin. Sin does not reside in the flesh (meat) of an animal or man. When the Bible speaks of flesh, it is normally speaking of a flesh nature; sin nature; depraved nature; Adamic nature, etc.

Yes it is. I don't know of anyone (saved or unsaved) who doesn't have a nature to sin. We all struggle against it. Unless you are God you struggle against sin. If you say you don't, you are probably lying to me right now. In almost every epistle that Paul wrote, writing to Christians, he wrote about sin, rebuking Christians of sin, telling Christians how to overcome sin. This was no accident. The sin nature is never eradicated; not until the resurrection occurs.

The flesh (nature) and the sin nature, and the old nature, and the Adamic nature, are all the same thing. They are just different words describing the same thing. You still have a flesh nature or sin nature. And unless you attribute your sin to God, you still have a sin nature.

You have misunderstood Scripture. Where in Scripture do you find Christians making excuses for their sin? Where is Scripture do you find Paul being "so upset"?? You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.

We are to act as if we are dead to sin. Sad to say most Christians don't as is evidenced by this chapter and the last part of chapter five. If they were already dead to sin and didn't have to act dead to sin, then Paul would have no need to write what he just wrote. It would all be redundant. He wrote it because they were not acting dead to sin.

This verse simply points out the symbolic teaching of baptism.

Maybe so, but it can't force one to walk that way. Every Christian must make their own choice how they are to walk. The can make the choice to walk carnally for a time, in which case God, their Father, will chastise them according to Hebrews 12. There is such a thing as a carnal Christian. This is stated very clearly (4 times in 4 verses) in 1Cor.3:1-5, where Paul addressing Christians says, "You are carnal."

Very true. That is speaking of the resurrection, not how we live right now.

we should not serve sin. That is where the emphasis is. But some Christians still do. That doesn't take away their salvation. Like the Corinthians they are carnal. They need to repent. Much of the language is symbolic here. It has to do with baptism, and what baptism represents.
In almost every other passage Paul speaks of being crucified with Christ in an active tense. It is something to be done every day. It is not something, like salvation or justification, that happened once. For example, in 1Cor.15:31:
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)
Jesus taught the same thing:
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (Luke 9:23)
--It is not a one time act. Take up your cross daily. A cross is an instrument of death. The disciple was to crucify himself daily--every day he was to put himself to death; every day he was to put his old nature to death. That is what Paul had to do, even after Pentecost came. The truth is still the same today. We are not immune from the old nature that dwells within us.

And how are you dead. What is the definition of the word "dead."?

No it isn't. We will always have that old nature. What was buried at baptism is our former life of sin.

Are you claiming to be sinless?

The flesh is the flesh (sin) nature. They are one and the same thing. You are playing a game of semantics in which you cannot win. Flesh as meat is not spoken of here. Sin does not reside in the periodic table.

That is because it is a sin nature--the Adamic nature.

That is the promise that God gives us that we can overcome sin; that we can have the victory over it. It is there for us. Does every Christian claim it or take advantage of this promise? No, they don't. Many succumb to their testings and trials anyway. Many remain as carnal Christians.

There is a flesh nature as you admitted. That is the same thing as the old sin nature which you do not want to admit. All you are doing is playing word games.

A person who is carnal is lost. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

 

[JesusFan]

A person who is carnal is lost. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

have to allow the context to provide the answer...
Carnal mind cannot receive the things of the Spirit that is the unsaved person
You are acting as if carnal men Christians acting as if not saved

Sometimes Bible refers to unsaved, sometimes saints like context be the guide!

 

[revmwc]

I know of no place that says "sin died with Christ." In fact sin is alive and well, just look around.

Well I believe you missed 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Verse 24 He bore our sins, our sins were paid for they died with Him on that cross and made it an issue of do you have the SON. He bore the penalty for all sin, He took our sin and the issue of sin died with Him. The issue the only thing that sends one into the second death is acceptance or rejection of Christ. Baring our sins means He bore the penalty for them, he took all Sin upon himself that day He paid the price for all PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE sin. He bore Adams, Abrahams and even Esau's sin. He bore Peter, James and even Judas's sin. He bore you sin and my sin he even bore Hitler's sin that day. The issue now is do you have Christ Righteousness in you have you received Him as payment for your sin. So when He took the sin upon Him the sin issue was gone and it is now a Son issue.

 

[revmwc]

have to allow the context to provide the answer...
Carnal mind cannot receive the things of the Spirit that is the unsaved person
You are acting as if carnal men Christians acting as if not saved

Sometimes Bible refers to unsaved, sometimes saints like context be the guide!

It goes back to my original post the original Greek word must be seen in the context.

Psueche - of the soul (i. e. the unbeliever) Translated in the bible as the following:
heart, heartily, life, lives, mind, minds, person, persons, soul, souls, suspense, thing

Sarx - or Sarkikos which means in the flesh or a fleshly believer one who is walking in the flesh but has been saved. Here are the definitions
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
the body
the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation
the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
without any suggestion of depravity
the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

Please note this meaning of Sarx "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God" From this word you can see the Old sin Nature and everywhere it is used it means the Old Nature.

So Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" Carnally minded (sarkikos). Spiritually minded (pnuematikos). That is being carnally minded is allowing sin to control and dominate your life as a believer.

The final word was Pnuematikos - in the Spirit, this is the Believer who is walking in the Spirit, the Spirit filled believer.
So yes you have to allow context and the original word from the Greek determine how you interpret scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

Well I believe you missed 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Verse 24 He bore our sins, our sins were paid for they died with Him on that cross and made it an issue of do you have the SON. He bore the penalty for all sin, He took our sin and the issue of sin died with Him. The issue the only thing that sends one into the second death is acceptance or rejection of Christ. Baring our sins means He bore the penalty for them, he took all Sin upon himself that day He paid the price for all PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE sin. He bore Adams, Abrahams and even Esau's sin. He bore Peter, James and even Judas's sin. He bore you sin and my sin he even bore Hitler's sin that day. The issue now is do you have Christ Righteousness in you have you received Him as payment for your sin. So when He took the sin upon Him the sin issue was gone and it is now a Son issue.

revmwc seriously I am beginning to wonder about you. You post a text then change the text in your statement. Sins have not died. That teaxt never says that. They are alive and well. According to the passage It is WE who are saved who are died to sin. Our sin is paid for. Now that we have died to sin we are now alive in Christ and suppose to live unto righteousness.

 

[freeatlast]

have to allow the context to provide the answer...
Carnal mind cannot receive the things of the Spirit that is the unsaved person
You are acting as if carnal men Christians acting as if not saved

Sometimes Bible refers to unsaved, sometimes saints like context be the guide!

All right let's do that. let's say that Paul is saying that a person can be carnal and saved. Would you also agree that he sets the standard for what constitutes carnality in a believer?
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
These alone constitute carnality if we are going to keep it in context, agreed?

 

[DHK]

A person who is carnal is lost. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

A falsehood affirmed as truth remains a falsehood.
You can stand on a hilltop and shout it to the mountains, but it won't make it true. You must offer some evidence for your position.

 

[freeatlast]

A falsehood affirmed as truth remains a falsehood.
You can stand on a hilltop and shout it to the mountains, but it won't make it true. You must offer some evidence for your position.

Here is your evidence again;
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Death in this passage is a synonym for hell, lost, unsaved.

 

[revmwc]

All right let's do that. let's say that Paul is saying that a person can be carnal and saved. Would you also agree that he sets the standard for what constitutes carnality in a believer?
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
These alone constitute carnality if we are going to keep it in context, agreed?

Again you missed one thing at the end of the verse that qualifies it all ye walk as men, meaning you walk as the world walks. Carnallity for the believer is walking as the world walks, that is walking in sin.

 

[JesusFan]

That is right. They knew nothing of having only one nature. Paul took an entire chapter (Romans 7) to describe his struggle with his two natures: the old nature and the new nature. At times he didn't do what he wanted to do, and at other times he did do what he didn't want to do. Life was a struggle. He struggled with sin. There were two natures struggling within. And at the end of the chapter he tells us that only by submitting the mind to Christ could one overcome what he calls "the law of sin." But the old nature was never eradicated.

That all fits in with the verses in the Epistles admonishing us to put on armor of God, being daily refilled with Holy Spirit, renew our minds with Bible etc...
IF we as Christians no longer have the Sin nature to deal with, why would we need to make a daily chose to do these things, as we would just have Holy Spirit now in us, and He cannot sin, can He?

Jesus was the man-God. He was perfectly and wholly man (completely sinless), and completely divine or deity at the same time. We have no claim to sinlessness or deity.

Agree totally...
Just was using that as example of IF even Jesus kept a dual nature, why wouldn't we retain our "human" nature even after being saved?

Yes. At that time, and only then, will our bodies be free from the old nature. The Bible says: "We wait for the redemption of our bodies."

Seems that IF one held to just being 1 nature in a Christian, would have to deny original Sin affecting us, and sinless perfection IS attainable in this life!
problem is neither idea supported in Bible!

 

[revmwc]

revmwc seriously I am beginning to wonder about you. You post a text then change the text in your statement. Sins have not died. That teaxt never says that. They are alive and well. According to the passage It is WE who are saved who are died to sin. Our sin is paid for. Now that we have died to sin we are now alive in Christ and suppose to live unto righteousness.

since Christ paid for sins and not ours only but the sins of the whole world then the sin issue is dead. It is now a Son issue. Since the sin issue died it like the sin has died. The whole issue is now that of a SON issue. Have you accepted or rejected the Son. Rejection means dieing the second death seperation from God for all eternity. Acceptance means being with God the Trinity throughout eternity.

1st John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Well this says we definitely have sin in our life.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ paid for the sins of all, Ours and the sins of the whole world. Our do we need now to throughout John's teaching too?

 

[freeatlast]

Again you missed one thing at the end of the verse that qualifies it all ye walk as men, meaning you walk as the world walks. Carnallity for the believer is walking as the world walks, that is walking in sin.

I am not sure i understand the point.

 

[revmwc]

I am not sure i understand the point.

The carnally minded (sarkikos) believer walks like a psuchikos man. The carnal believer walks in the flesh and is in sin.

 

[DHK]

Here is your evidence again;
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Death in this passage is a synonym for hell, lost, unsaved.

No, death is not a synonym for hell, lost, or unsaved.
Death simply means separation.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
James uses the word here to describe physical death. When the body is separated from the spirit, then that is death.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--Paul was not speaking of physical death but uses the word "dead" to speak of spiritual death, when the Ephesians were separated from God. The Holy Spirit gave them life. They are now alive in Christ. They were separated from God. It is a spiritual death; spiritual separation.

There is spiritual separation that pertains to believers as well.
David said in Psalms 66:18,
"If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me."
--Sin separates the believer from God. Salvation is not lost but fellowship is broken. That is spiritual death. It is separation from God. Sin separates us from the fellowship that we ought to be having with God.

Until one realizes how the word "death" is defined or used in the Bible they will be utterly confused in many areas of theology including soteriology.

To be carnally minded is "death." That is true for anyone.
To be carnally minded--of the flesh, the world, etc. causes separation from God. God hates worldliness. It will separate you from God whether you are a believer or not, and that is spiritual death.

What did James say to the believers he was addressing:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
If you are a friend of the world you (Christian) are the enemy of God.
Can a Christian be the enemy of God? Yes he can! How? By his chosen lifestyle which is carnal, worldly, after the flesh resulting in spiritual death. That doesn't mean he has lost his salvation.

 

[freeatlast]

The carnally minded (sarkikos) believer walks like a psuchikos man. The carnal believer walks in the flesh and is in sin.

I still am not clear on your point from the op question of your post.

 

[revmwc]

No, death is not a synonym for hell, lost, or unsaved.
Death simply means separation.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
James uses the word here to describe physical death. When the body is separated from the spirit, then that is death.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--Paul was not speaking of physical death but uses the word "dead" to speak of spiritual death, when the Ephesians were separated from God. The Holy Spirit gave them life. They are now alive in Christ. They were separated from God. It is a spiritual death; spiritual separation.

There is spiritual separation that pertains to believers as well.
David said in Psalms 66:18,
"If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me."
--Sin separates the believer from God. Salvation is not lost but fellowship is broken. That is spiritual death. It is separation from God. Sin separates us from the fellowship that we ought to be having with God.

Until one realizes how the word "death" is defined or used in the Bible they will be utterly confused in many areas of theology including soteriology.

To be carnally minded is "death." That is true for anyone.
To be carnally minded--of the flesh, the world, etc. causes separation from God. God hates worldliness. It will separate you from God whether you are a believer or not, and that is spiritual death.

What did James say to the believers he was addressing:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
If you are a friend of the world you (Christian) are the enemy of God.
Can a Christian be the enemy of God? Yes he can! How? By his chosen lifestyle which is carnal, worldly, after the flesh resulting in spiritual death. That doesn't mean he has lost his salvation.

Sorry your use of Spiritual death is incorrect. Spiritual death is in effect at birth once you have been made Spiritually alive you cannot die Spiritually again. The Holy spirit is always indwelling the believer and the believer is always Spiritually alive.
To be Carnally minded is death is Temporal death, Temporal Death means temporary seperation from fellowship with God. God will not hear your prayers, He will work in your life except to chasten until you confess sin and turn back to the control of the Holy spirit.
Those who continue to operate in the flesh for a long period of time are in Operational death. They are seperated from operating in the control of the Holy Spirit and have continued in that state for a long period of time. Both those in Temporal death and those in operational death are carnally minded but one confesses and gets back to operating under the control of the spirit and the other stays out of fellowship and is operating under the control of the SARX (flesh Old Sin Nature).

 

[freeatlast]

No, death is not a synonym for hell, lost, or unsaved.
Death simply means separation.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
James uses the word here to describe physical death. When the body is separated from the spirit, then that is death.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--Paul was not speaking of physical death but uses the word "dead" to speak of spiritual death, when the Ephesians were separated from God. The Holy Spirit gave them life. They are now alive in Christ. They were separated from God. It is a spiritual death; spiritual separation.

There is spiritual separation that pertains to believers as well.
David said in Psalms 66:18,
"If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me."
--Sin separates the believer from God. Salvation is not lost but fellowship is broken. That is spiritual death. It is separation from God. Sin separates us from the fellowship that we ought to be having with God.

Until one realizes how the word "death" is defined or used in the Bible they will be utterly confused in many areas of theology including soteriology.

To be carnally minded is "death." That is true for anyone.
To be carnally minded--of the flesh, the world, etc. causes separation from God. God hates worldliness. It will separate you from God whether you are a believer or not, and that is spiritual death.

What did James say to the believers he was addressing:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
If you are a friend of the world you (Christian) are the enemy of God.
Can a Christian be the enemy of God? Yes he can! How? By his chosen lifestyle which is carnal, worldly, after the flesh resulting in spiritual death. That doesn't mean he has lost his salvation.

Show me one reputable bible teacher that teaches that the term death in the passage does not mean hell.

 

[revmwc]

I still am not clear on your point from the op question of your post.

Sorry can't make it any clearer not sure why you keep fisihing for the same answer. Clear your question up what exactly you don't understand or it is you just don't agree and don't know how to reply.

 

[revmwc]

Show me one reputable bible teacher that teaches that the term death in the passage does not mean hell.

Define who you think is reputable.