Are Carnal Christians Those Who Chose to Not Submit To Spirit But To Flesh?

[freeatlast]

Interesting that those of us here claiming to have just the new nature in Christ, purged of their old sinful nature are saying something thast Apostles peter, John, and paul knew nothing about....
Also, didn't Jesus still retain dual natures, even though he was very God?
Also, what would paul be referring to when he described the resurrected glorified body of the Christian? Wouldn't that be time when we fully put of the Flesh and sin nature that dwells within us?

No Jesus never had a sin nature. Paul, John , and Peter all agree we do not have two natures. We have a new nature and the old one died in Christ, but we are left with the flesh which we can overcome.

 

[JesusFan]

No Jesus never had a sin nature. Paul, John , and Peter all agree we do not have two natures. We have a new nature and the old one died in Christ, but we are left with the flesh which we can overcome.

Agree Jesus had no sin nature, but still kept TWIN natures, human and God...
We also have fallen sin nature, humanity, and new nature of Holy Spirit dwelling in our mortal bodies..
IF we no longer have old Flesh, just what are we than? God nature, with a human mind? isn't our Will still against what God wants, and that is why we are commanded to daily get fresh infilling of Holy Spirit?
paul knew about his fallen nature, was at war against the Spirit, nothing good residing in his Flesh, peter knewabout it, and Paul taught on how to overcome the Flesh by making no provision for the Flesh, but submit/yield to Holy Spirit, and will NOT DO the dictates of the Flesh...
Sounds like old nature still there, Eh?

 

[freeatlast]

Agree Jesus had no sin nature, but still kept TWIN natures, human and God...
We also have fallen sin nature, humanity, and new nature of Holy Spirit dwelling in our mortal bodies..
IF we no longer have old Flesh, just what are we than? God nature, with a human mind? isn't our Will still against what God wants, and that is why we are commanded to daily get fresh infilling of Holy Spirit?
paul knew about his fallen nature, was at war against the Spirit, nothing good residing in his Flesh, peter knewabout it, and Paul taught on how to overcome the Flesh by making no provision for the Flesh, but submit/yield to Holy Spirit, and will NOT DO the dictates of the Flesh...
Sounds like old nature still there, Eh?

This is about sin nature and that dies at the cross and we are left with the flesh and a new nature, not two natures.

 

[JesusFan]

This is about sin nature and that dies at the cross and we are left with the flesh and a new nature, not two natures.

Where is that viewpoint referenced though in the new testament?
And WHAT causes us to sin, if all we are in a physical body with new nature of Holy Spirit in us?

Are you saying that we get "born again", God replaces our human selves with His nature?

 

[revmwc]

Not answering prayer is not a loss of fellowship. He is still with us every day and never leaves. He just does not answer our prayers as he would if we have any sin in our lives.
Hebrews 3 is about a lost person not a saved person.

Hebrews 12:1 is also about a lost person. The weight is there unbelief. You will never understand the book of Hebrews without understanding Leviticus. Also the book was written to the Jew.
So the believer cannot lose fellowship with God as he will never leave us or forsake us. Chastening proves fellowship although painful.

Where do you get that the writer of Hebrews is speaking to lost people in Chapter 3 and chapter 12 where does he state that he is no longer writing to brethren, Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

This verse makes it clear the writer was speaking to the brethren (i.e the believers in Christ). So again where does he make the change to speaking to unbelievers?
Hebrews 12:1 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us
The writer uses the term us so are you saying that the writer of Hebrews was not a believer. If 12:1 is about a lost person and the writter say let us and before us then he too would be a lost person.

 

[revmwc]

This is about sin nature and that dies at the cross and we are left with the flesh and a new nature, not two natures.

The bible says sin died with Christ, he took on our sin and the sin issue died on the cross. The unbeliever spends eternity seperated from God for one reason and on reason only, REJECTING JESUS, the unbeliever dies the second death because of never receiving Christ as saviour. All sin PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE was paid for on the cross and the sin issue died. God looks on us and sees Christ Righteousness he doesn't see us as sinners. He also chastens us when we sin so he never leaves us but we cannot communicate (fellowship) with Him until we confess sin, He will not hear our prayer.

 

[revmwc]

The nature of man as created needs to be seen.
Genesis 1:
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man was created in the image of God, man had a Soul, body and Spirit. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Once man fell in sin he became spiritually dead. So that with the exception of Christ every human born has been born with a body and soul. Born spiritually dead. The Spiritual life must be regenerated. That is what happens when a person recieves Christ. They become complete. Since the body and soul do not die at salvation the change is the Spiritual birth. The soul is still intact and the body is intact as it was at birth. So which part houses the New Nature, the human spirit that is reborn or regenerated. Which part house the Old Sin Nature the soul and the soul doesn't die at salvation and stays intact if it dies then we die for the soul is who we are. Therefore the Old Sin Nature stays in the soul and every human being saved or lost has an Old Sin Nature.

 

[freeatlast]

Where is that viewpoint referenced though in the new testament?
And WHAT causes us to sin, if all we are in a physical body with new nature of Holy Spirit in us?

Are you saying that we get "born again", God replaces our human selves with His nature?

I would ask you what caused Adam to sin since he was created in the image of God? Adam was not created with a sin nature. Sin is always a choice brought about by unbelief. It was a choice for Adam and it is a choice for the believer. For the lost all they do is sin as nothing they do is towards the Lord and cannot be. Romans 8

About the new birth. We are born in Adam, lost which is the first birth. We have to be born again in Christ or the second birth, and for that to happen the adamic nature has to die. We do not have two natures residing in us at the same time. While in Adam Christ is not alive in us. While in Christ Adam is not alive in us.

 

[revmwc]

I would ask you what caused Adam to sin since he was created in the image of God? Adam was not created with a sin nature. Sin is always a choice brought about by unbelief. It was a choice for Adam and it is a choice for the believer. For the lost all they do is sin as nothing they do is towards the Lord and cannot be. Romans 8

About the new birth. We are born in Adam, lost which is the first birth. We have to be born again in Christ or the second birth, and for that to happen the adamic nature has to die. We do not have two natures residing in us at the same time. While in Adam Christ is not alive in us. While in Christ Adam is not alive in us.

Adam made a concious choice and spirtiual death came into the world and the nature to sin was passed to everyone born after that because of Adams sin, except of course Christ. Since Christ had no sin nature but was as Adam and us temted by Satan he could very well have made the choice to sin in his humanity, but His Godward side didn't allow him to give into sin.
Just as when He prayed in the Garden that premature physical death (let this cup pass from me) wouldn't come and that He would make it to the cross He still did not sin. God sent an Angel to strengthen Him so he did not die in the Garden and accomplished His goal of dieing on the cross. He never gave into to temptation.

 

[freeatlast]

The bible says sin died with Christ, he took on our sin and the sin issue died on the cross. The unbeliever spends eternity seperated from God for one reason and on reason only, REJECTING JESUS, the unbeliever dies the second death because of never receiving Christ as saviour. All sin PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE was paid for on the cross and the sin issue died. God looks on us and sees Christ Righteousness he doesn't see us as sinners. He also chastens us when we sin so he never leaves us but we cannot communicate (fellowship) with Him until we confess sin, He will not hear our prayer.

I know of no place that says "sin died with Christ." In fact sin is alive and well, just look around.
I am glad that you agree that once we are saved God does not see us as sinners. This is why we need to stop calling ourselves sinners saved by grace. We were sinners, but now we are saints saved by grace.
As to your assumption that we cannot communicate with God if we have sinned there is no scripture to back that up. It is true that the Jews believed that, and their belief is reported in scripture, but it simply is not what the bible teaches as being true. So our fellowship does not stop because we sin. In fact our fellowship gets even more real as the spirit deals with us because of the sin. All fellowship is not pleasant.

I assume that your father or mother took a belt or something else to your behind from time to time. At least that was the method in my generation. That was fellowship of the highest order, but it was not pleasant. While fellowship does usually mean happy and joyful relationship it also can mean any part or kind of a relationship and so we as Christians do not lose fellowship with the Lord just because we sin. The fellowship just changes in type when we sin.

 

[DHK]

Paul explains it in Romans 7....
[QUOTEFor I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I believe Paul in Romans 6,7,8, without contradiction

But you apparently don't understand what he is saying. He is describing a war, a struggle that goes on daily between his old nature and his new nature every day in his Christian life. If you are honest with yourself you will admit that you face this same struggle that Paul faces with sin. Every Christian does. It is a struggle with the flesh, the old nature.

Paul, like all Christians delights in the law of God. The inward man has given him that desire.
However the old nature is still there. He describes it as another law warring against the law of my mind and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin. Paul sinned. He did it every day. Every day he struggled with sin. It was an ongoing process. The old nature brought him into captivity to the law of sin, which is in his members--hands, feet, eyes, etc.--those things of his body that actually carry out the sin.

After spending most of chapter seven describing this terrible battle against the flesh (the carnal nature or sin nature), he cries out in desperation:
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And then he victoriously gives the answer:
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--The battle is in the mind. With the mind I serve the law of God. But I don't have 100% control of my mind, and Paul didn't either. At the end of the day he gives the answer. We must submit our minds to Christ. It is a struggle. When we submit to our flesh we find ourselves submitting to the law of sin or carnality. And it does happen. It happened to Paul. He spent an entire chapter showing how it happened. We don't live perfect lives. The battle is in the mind. As long as I submit my mind to Christ I will be victorious. But I don't always do that, do I. I would be lying (and so would you) if you claimed that you submitted your mind 100% of the time to Christ in all things.

DHK.....it is your ungodly suggestion ,inference,and slander that I would even suggest such an ungodly thought. I have offered teaching and explanations that you are unable or unwilling to grasp. I am sorry that you do not get it.

You gave me no options.
What are your options Icon. Think it through. Answer my questions one by one instead of saying that I am slandering you.
1. Are you perfect and sinless? If so think of 1John 1:1:8,10 and the implications those Scriptures have on your life.
2. If you have sinned where did the sin come from?
3. If you do not have a sin nature (as you claim), and only the new nature, given by the Holy Spirit, resides within, then the sin comes from the Holy Spirit, correct?
4. Since you have already stated, "we all struggle with sin," I can only assume that the sin you struggle with is from the Holy Spirit because you say you don't have a sin nature, only a new nature from God. You therefore attribute your sin to God. A bit blasphemous isn't it??

Again...unless you can show anywhere that I said this, you need to repent of making this kind of false charge.

I have made no false charges. I have used the information you have given me and shown you how your position attributes sin to God. You will deny that of course, but it is the logical outcome of your position.

 

[freeatlast]

Adam made a concious choice and spirtiual death came into the world and the nature to sin was passed to everyone born after that because of Adams sin, except of course Christ. Since Christ had no sin nature but was as Adam and us temted by Satan he could very well have made the choice to sin in his humanity, but His Godward side didn't allow him to give into sin.
Just as when He prayed in the Garden that premature physical death (let this cup pass from me) wouldn't come and that He would make it to the cross He still did not sin. God sent an Angel to strengthen Him so he did not die in the Garden and accomplished His goal of dieing on the cross. He never gave into to temptation.

Again the bible does not say what you are saying. The nature of sin did not pass onto all men, death passed onto all men.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Again the nature of sin did not pass. Sin was with adam a choice and sin is still today a choice. What passed was death. It passed onto all because we are all in Adam thus we all sinned.

Next about Christ being as Adam. Well that is another debate, but one thing for sure it cannot be backed up with scripture.

As to your understanding of the prayer in the garden I can only say that I believe you are so confused with what you are suggesting that it totally clouds what the prayer is about. The Lord was asking the father if there was any other way not to send Him to the cross and become sin, but again that is another topic.

So we do not have two natures residing at the same time. We are either in Adam or we are in Christ. Not Adam and Christ at the same time.

 

[revmwc]

Yes and salvation gives us a new nature because the old one dies with Christ.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So david confirms we are born with a sin nature and paul confirms it dies with Christ at the new birth where we get a new nature. Thanks for the passage. :thumbsup:

Paul confirms that the Old Nature wars with the New Nature throughout his writings. I see nowhere that Paul says we have no Old Sin Nature.

 

[revmwc]

Again the bible does not say what you are saying. The nature of sin did not pass onto all men, death passed onto all men.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Again the nature of sin did not pass. Sin was with adam a choice and sin is still today a choice. What passed was death. It passed onto all because we are all in Adam thus we all sinned.

Next about Christ being as Adam. Well that is another debate, but one thing for sure it cannot be backed up with scripture.

As to your understanding of the prayer in the garden I can only say that I believe you are so confused with what you are suggesting that it totally clouds what the prayer is about. The Lord was asking the father if there was any other way not to send Him to the cross and become sin, but again that is another topic.

So we do not have two natures residing at the same time. We are either in Adam or we are in Christ. Not Adam and Christ at the same time.

The Nature of sin is what you just quoted. The nature of sin was passed from Adam to by one man the sin nature entered into the world, and spiritual seath by sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Paul confirms that the Old Nature wars with the New Nature throughout his writings. I see nowhere that Paul says we have no Old Sin Nature.

well then you should be able to give a book and verse that says we have a sin nature and new nature living together.

 

[freeatlast]

The Nature of sin is what you just quoted. The nature of sin was passed from Adam to by one man the sin nature entered into the world, and spiritual seath by sin.

Again you are adding to scripture. i see why you are so confused with this type of eisegetical manner of arriving at what you believe.

It says what it means, not what you want it to say or mean;
The nature of sin did not pass onto all men, death passed onto all men.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You are looking for an excuse for your sin. The only excuse we have is because we choose to sin, not because we have a nature to sin.

 

[revmwc]

well then you should be able to give a book and verse that says we have a sin nature and new nature living together.

I have given you several books and verses you just haven't read them.
But let's go back and review for your benefit.
Romans 7:
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Paul says in him in his flesh dwelleth no good thing, He is speaking of the old nature in him. These verses show the war of the two natures. Verse 17 and 20 Paul makes it clear sin dwells in Him as a believer he had sin dwelling in him, that was his Old Sin Nature.

Then James also taught we have an old sin nature in us, James 4: 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

 

[DHK]

No, the flesh is not the old nature. A dog has a nature to turn and lick up its vomit. A hog has a nature to wallow in a mire. A lost person has a nature to sin, go against God. All these examples are what is natural by birth to each example. In the case of a sinner (lost person) the nature feeds off the flesh. Both the flesh and the nature are in agreement.

There are plenty of nations in this world that eat dog. They eat the meat. That is "flesh." There is nothing inherently evil in the flesh of a dog. Dogs are not evil. God created all his creation and looked at it and claimed that it was very good. That included dogs. It was man that fell; man that sinned; man that acquired a sin nature. A dog doesn't have a spirit like man. Your example does not fit. There is nothing sinful in meat (flesh). Every time you sit down to eat: steak, hamburger, chicken, etc., are you eating sin? All of that is flesh--the flesh of an animal. Flesh is not sin. Sin does not reside in the flesh (meat) of an animal or man. When the Bible speaks of flesh, it is normally speaking of a flesh nature; sin nature; depraved nature; Adamic nature, etc.

For the human who is born again it is no longer natural for them to sin.

Yes it is. I don't know of anyone (saved or unsaved) who doesn't have a nature to sin. We all struggle against it. Unless you are God you struggle against sin. If you say you don't, you are probably lying to me right now. In almost every epistle that Paul wrote, writing to Christians, he wrote about sin, rebuking Christians of sin, telling Christians how to overcome sin. This was no accident. The sin nature is never eradicated; not until the resurrection occurs.

A Christians does not sin because it is their nature. Thye sin because they give into the flesh, but it comes with a price.

The flesh (nature) and the sin nature, and the old nature, and the Adamic nature, are all the same thing. They are just different words describing the same thing. You still have a flesh nature or sin nature. And unless you attribute your sin to God, you still have a sin nature.

Old things are passed away and all things have become new. This false teaching that we have an old sin nature is why Paul is so upset in Romans. People using a belief and term to justify their sin and in this case "old sin nature."

You have misunderstood Scripture. Where in Scripture do you find Christians making excuses for their sin? Where is Scripture do you find Paul being "so upset"?? You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.

Listen to the Spirit through Paul;

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid! How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (let me point out that the old nature is dead, but the flesh is still alive. New wine (the new nature) has been put into old wineskins (the flesh) and one day they will burst and new wines skins will be given.)

We are to act as if we are dead to sin. Sad to say most Christians don't as is evidenced by this chapter and the last part of chapter five. If they were already dead to sin and didn't have to act dead to sin, then Paul would have no need to write what he just wrote. It would all be redundant. He wrote it because they were not acting dead to sin.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This verse simply points out the symbolic teaching of baptism.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ( I need to point out something here. The word should is not in the Greek and it makes the passage sound different then is intended. It is not saying we should walk like this, but many do not. It is saying we who are born again walk like this. The new birth requires a new walk.)

Maybe so, but it can't force one to walk that way. Every Christian must make their own choice how they are to walk. The can make the choice to walk carnally for a time, in which case God, their Father, will chastise them according to Hebrews 12. There is such a thing as a carnal Christian. This is stated very clearly (4 times in 4 verses) in 1Cor.3:1-5, where Paul addressing Christians says, "You are carnal."

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Very true. That is speaking of the resurrection, not how we live right now.

Knowing this, that our old man (this is the sin nature) is crucified with [him], that the body of sin (this is the flesh) might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

we should not serve sin. That is where the emphasis is. But some Christians still do. That doesn't take away their salvation. Like the Corinthians they are carnal. They need to repent. Much of the language is symbolic here. It has to do with baptism, and what baptism represents.
In almost every other passage Paul speaks of being crucified with Christ in an active tense. It is something to be done every day. It is not something, like salvation or justification, that happened once. For example, in 1Cor.15:31:
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)
Jesus taught the same thing:
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (Luke 9:23)
--It is not a one time act. Take up your cross daily. A cross is an instrument of death. The disciple was to crucify himself daily--every day he was to put himself to death; every day he was to put his old nature to death. That is what Paul had to do, even after Pentecost came. The truth is still the same today. We are not immune from the old nature that dwells within us.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And how are you dead. What is the definition of the word "dead."?

At salvation the old nature died. That man died with Christ! This is part of the symbolism of water baptism.

No it isn't. We will always have that old nature. What was buried at baptism is our former life of sin.

It is no longer the nature of the believer to sin.

Are you claiming to be sinless?

However we are left with the flesh which we are responsible to control and not it us.

The flesh is the flesh (sin) nature. They are one and the same thing. You are playing a game of semantics in which you cannot win. Flesh as meat is not spoken of here. Sin does not reside in the periodic table.

This is why it is so uncomfortable for a believer to sin. We have to go against our nature and give into the flesh and the flesh is very seductive.

That is because it is a sin nature--the Adamic nature.

However we have a promise that we will not be tempted so greatly that we have to give in.

1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

That is the promise that God gives us that we can overcome sin; that we can have the victory over it. It is there for us. Does every Christian claim it or take advantage of this promise? No, they don't. Many succumb to their testings and trials anyway. Many remain as carnal Christians.

So there is no old sin nature in a believer, but we yet reside in these corruptible bodies and we have the ability to control them and are expected to do so.

There is a flesh nature as you admitted. That is the same thing as the old sin nature which you do not want to admit. All you are doing is playing word games.

 

[revmwc]

, death passed onto all men.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You are looking for an excuse for your sin. The only excuse we have is because we choose to sin, not because we have a nature to sin.

Spiritual death passed onto all men.
If you say sin entered the world how would you sin just because Adam sinned. Adam sin is not laid to your charge, and yet you sin, you have the desire to sin and that desire comes from somewhere, where does it come from? All have sinned the passage says why? Why would you sin if it is not in your nature to sin? If it is in your nature to sin and you only have a new nature then why do you sin?
What is the driving force in your sinning, if it is not a Sin Nature in you then what is it?
You say the flesh, that is just another term for you nature. Adam passed on the human traits we have to us from father to father the traits and human ideas come. The son takes on the nature of his father and our human fathers nature was to sin. Even once they were saved they continued in sin, why?

 

[DHK]

Interesting that those of us here claiming to have just the new nature in Christ, purged of their old sinful nature are saying something thast Apostles peter, John, and paul knew nothing about....

That is right. They knew nothing of having only one nature. Paul took an entire chapter (Romans 7) to describe his struggle with his two natures: the old nature and the new nature. At times he didn't do what he wanted to do, and at other times he did do what he didn't want to do. Life was a struggle. He struggled with sin. There were two natures struggling within. And at the end of the chapter he tells us that only by submitting the mind to Christ could one overcome what he calls "the law of sin." But the old nature was never eradicated.

Also, didn't Jesus still retain dual natures, even though he was very God?

Jesus was the man-God. He was perfectly and wholly man (completely sinless), and completely divine or deity at the same time. We have no claim to sinlessness or deity.

Also, what would paul be referring to when he described the resurrected glorified body of the Christian? Wouldn't that be time when we fully put of the Flesh and sin nature that dwells within us?

Yes. At that time, and only then, will our bodies be free from the old nature. The Bible says: "We wait for the redemption of our bodies."