If God is NEVER informed by man, then please explain this...

[Aaron]

No sense in beating dead horses, so this will be my last response.

No, he created men in his own image and declared all he created to be "good."

Calvin himself disagrees with you on this point as does most of Christendom, so I'll not even attempt to address this blatantly non-orthadox statement, but let it stand as it is....wrong. Adam was created in the image of God and was declared "good."

I didn't say otherwise. Adam was created good, but not incorruptible. Adam was corrupted and chose to regard Eve's desires above God's commandment.

And the universal non-optional principle is that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. In Adam, all died.

Mankind chose to sin by their own free volition...the free volition God created them to have so that they could independently deliberate, reason and choose. Thus, they are held to account for those choices.

Actually, they died in Adam. They and you were stillborn. It's that simple.

Our sin is not after the similitude of Adam's sin. He was created good and alive and free, and disobeyed not because of the power of death over him, but because he corrupted himself.

But death reigns over us from the moment of conception. We are corrupt from conception, and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

More than that, because Adam was once enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift, and was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, (he walked and talked with God) and fell away he could not be renewed to repententance. He was not saved, and salvation was not offered to him. And so Christ reckons the righteous (by faith) of Adam's race from Abel, not Adam.

So, if indeed your children are born good and free and uncorrupted, then their sin is in the similitude of Adam's sin, and salvation is not offered them.

Who or what "corrupted" him?

He corrupted himself.

Then you have no reason to declare such things as "because God foreknew all things before creating all things then he must have predetermined it to be" because that is a concept never taught in scripture. It is something created out of finite reasoning.

Proverbs 16:4: The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You must have missed that the first time I posted it.

You, of course, will say, "Uh-uh!" So, save it for another thread. I'm done in this one.

 

[Skandelon]

No sense in beating dead horses, so this will be my last response.

I don't blame you for stepping out before you have to answer the questions posed. We both know they will reveal the weakness of your system.

I didn't say otherwise. Adam was created good, but not incorruptible. Adam was corrupted and chose to regard Eve's desires above God's commandment.

That doesn't answer the question as to "what corrupted Adam" or WHY did Adam CHOOSE sin over God's commandment?

This is where the debate over true freewill come to a crux. Either Adam freely (contra-causally) chose to sin, or he chose according to his greatest desire which was determined by God who created him in such a way that he could not have done otherwise. Which is it?

Actually, they died in Adam. They and you were stillborn. It's that simple.

I've never seen a "stillborn" rebel against someone, yet you believe that dead men rebel against God. My point is that you carry the illustration too far.

14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Our sin is not after the similitude of Adam's sin. He was created good and alive and free, and disobeyed not because of the power of death over him, but because he corrupted himself.

What do you mean by "free" here? How did he corrupt himself? Could he have done otherwise? If not, why not?

But death reigns over us from the moment of conception. We are corrupt from conception, and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Not even if the tree is approached by God himself with the powerful life giving message of reconciliation? Where is that taught in scripture?

Proverbs 16:4: The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

I agree with the scholar Adam Clarke who wrote about this verse: "He does not make the wicked or ungodly man; but when man has made himself such, even then God bears with him. But if he repent not, when the measure of his iniquity is filled up, he shall fall under the wrath of God his Maker."

In light of such clear passages regarding God's holiness and his not even tempting men to evil (James 1), it would be completely inconsistent to take this passage to mean God makes men wicked. Clearly, it means that even those who are wicked are used for Himself and will be judged for their rebellion. It certainly doesn't say, "because God foreknew all things before creating all things then he must have predetermined it to be." The concept of foreknowledge is not even mentioned in this passage.

You, of course, will say, "Uh-uh!" So, save it for another thread. I'm done in this one.

You know as well as I that my arguments are much more that mere "uh-uh" statements. I've treated you with respect and have stayed on topic. If you wish to end the discussion just say so, but to insinuate that you are bailing because I offer nothing more than "uh-uh's" is clearly a red herring/ad homenium tactic to avoid the difficulty of your position.

 

[Skandelon]

Aaron, you never answer the question as to "what corrupted Adam" or WHY did Adam CHOOSE sin over God's commandment?