What is meant by being "grafted in" and "cut off?"

[Skandelon]

Romans 11: Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Clearly the branches represent here are in reference to Israel and the Gentiles. Israel is being "cut/broken off" but can be "grafted back in" "if they do not persist in unbelief." The Gentiles are being "grafted in" but can be broken off if they do not continue in faith.

Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.

But, if Paul is referring to Nations (corporately) then the question is what does the vine represent? Some say the church or the gospel. So, you have the Gentiles being grafted into His church, granting them the ability to enter covenant through faith in His gospel appeal. That gospel appeal is being hidden (spirit of stupor/parabolic language) from Israel temporarily so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

What say you?

 

[freeatlast]

I don't think it is nations per se. I think he is simply comparing gentiles to Jews. We are in at their expense and are warned not to get big headed about it since we can also be cut off and by cut off kept from hearing the truth.

 

[kyredneck]

Clearly the branches represent here are in reference to Israel and the Gentiles. Israel is being "cut/broken off" but can be "grafted back in" "if they do not persist in unbelief." The Gentiles are being "grafted in" but can be broken off if they do not continue in faith.

Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.

But, if Paul is referring to Nations (corporately) then the question is what does the vine represent? Some say the church or the gospel. So, you have the Gentiles being grafted into His church, granting them the ability to enter covenant through faith in His gospel appeal. That gospel appeal is being hidden (spirit of stupor/parabolic language) from Israel temporarily so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

What say you?

Skandelon, the corporate is made up of individuals and the context of Ro 11 is directed at both. I'm kinda short on time right now but I'll throw this in, with the intent of returning later:

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.....Gen 9:11

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more. Isa 54

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

These are just a few of the prophecies foretelling of the breaking off/ grafting in of Ro 11.

 

[convicted1]

Clearly the branches represent here are in reference to Israel and the Gentiles. Israel is being "cut/broken off" but can be "grafted back in" "if they do not persist in unbelief." The Gentiles are being "grafted in" but can be broken off if they do not continue in faith.

Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.

But, if Paul is referring to Nations (corporately) then the question is what does the vine represent? Some say the church or the gospel. So, you have the Gentiles being grafted into His church, granting them the ability to enter covenant through faith in His gospel appeal. That gospel appeal is being hidden (spirit of stupor/parabolic language) from Israel temporarily so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

What say you?

Here is what I have garnered through study, prayer, and meditation.

God blinded the Jews eyes because they had rebelled against Him for years. Furthermore, by God blinding their eyes, they could not see that He was/is the Messiah according to the prophecies of old. By them not seeing this, they crucified Him, therefore fulling the scripture that He was/is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. At this point they were cut off, and we were grafted in.

After Jesus died, their eyes were opened. The centurion stated, "Truly this was the Son of God", after He died, and the earth shook. Now, the Jews can be grafted in the same way we are.....BY FAITH!!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

PS The natural Jew MUST forsake their Jewish customs if they are to be saved.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, the corporate is made up of individuals and the context of Ro 11 is directed at both

Totally agree. Nations are made up of individuals, so that makes sense. So do you affirm that some individual was grafted in and then later cut off, or vise versa? Please expound when you have time.

 

[Skandelon]

Here is what I have garnered through study, prayer, and meditation.

God blinded the Jews eyes because they had rebelled against Him for years. Furthermore, by God blinding their eyes, they could not see that He was/is the Messiah according to the prophecies of old. By them not seeing this, they crucified Him, therefore fulling the scripture that He was/is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. At this point they were cut off, and we were grafted in.

After Jesus died, their eyes were opened. The centurion stated, "Truly this was the Son of God", after He died, and the earth shook. Now, the Jews can be grafted in the same way we are.....BY FAITH!!!

:applause:

Very well stated. I totally agree. The large number of Jews who came to faith in Acts 2 when Peter preached is also proof of this view...

 

[kyredneck]

Clearly the branches represent here are in reference to Israel and the Gentiles. Israel is being "cut/broken off" but can be "grafted back in" "if they do not persist in unbelief." The Gentiles are being "grafted in" but can be broken off if they do not continue in faith.

OK.

Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.

Cut off from salvation? Violate the doctrine of Perseverance? Why would anyone (individual) that has been cut off (from the root) because of unbelief, or for any other sin, be any different than the example we have been given in 1 Cor 5:5?:

“to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”.

....destroyed temporally but not eternally.

What are you saying that the root signifies here? Before Gentiles were grafted in, what became of them? Were they damned eternally?

But, if Paul is referring to Nations (corporately) then the question is what does the vine represent?

I believe the nourishment that we as the branches derive from the root is none other than the blessing of Abraham which is ultimately the unsearchable riches of Christ. I'm not so sure what Paul meant by the tree (or root). I don't know what to call it. The kingdom of heaven? There is a resemblance to the simile given in Jn 15 where Christ tells the disciples that He is is the vine, and as the root supports or nourishes the branches in Ro 11, He tells them in Jn 15, 'abide in Me, for without me ye can do nothing'.

Some say the church or the gospel. So, you have the Gentiles being grafted into His church, granting them the ability to enter covenant through faith in His gospel appeal. That gospel appeal is being hidden (spirit of stupor/parabolic language) from Israel temporarily so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

What say you?

The original first Church of Christ consisted of all Jews. When, if, there is a revival amongst them, they will come to the Church of Christ, where we are today, and what a glorious day that would be. There won't be a restoration of the old law or Mosaic covenant.

 

[kyredneck]

Totally agree. Nations are made up of individuals, so that makes sense. So do you affirm that some individual was grafted in and then later cut off, or vise versa? Please expound when you have time.

Again, the example given in 1 Cor 5, He was excluded and later restored (2 Cor), but his eternal standing never changed.

 

[Skandelon]

Again, the example given in 1 Cor 5, He was excluded and later restored (2 Cor), but his eternal standing never changed.

So, you believe that being cut off is a form of church discipline, in a sense?

So, what does it mean when it speaks of Israel being "cut off" and the "Gentiles" being grafted in?

I'm not disagreeing, just seeking understanding before I reply.

 

[kyredneck]

So, you believe that being cut off is a form of church discipline, in a sense?

I believe the man in 1 Cor 5:5 is an example of being cut off as it applies to this passage:

Ro 11:22 ....but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This individual (1 Cor 5:5) did not 'continue in God's goodness' and Paul turned him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. I would call that 'cut off'.

You said:

“Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.”

...which sounds as if you're applying eternal consequences to being 'cut off'.

I asked:

“Why would anyone (individual) that has been cut off (from the root) because of unbelief, or for any other sin, be any different than the example we have been given in 1 Cor 5:5?:

“to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”.

....destroyed temporally but not eternally.”


Let's keep this to one question at a time. I'll rephrase it:


Why would the 'cutting off' of Ro 11:22 be any different than the 'cutting off' of 1 Cor 5:5?:

“to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”.

....destroyed temporally but not eternally.

 

[psalms109:31]

Unbelief

Israel is the true branches that was to enter into the salvation, but was not able to enter because of unbelief, not because they were not chosen. They were chosen. We are Gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. Israel is not without hope if they do no persist in their unbelief they will be grafted back in.

The one's who have been chosen before the foundation of the world have been broken of because of unbelief. God is going to keep out of them the meek and humble and they will trust in the Lord. We who are not His from the beginning have been included as if we were there from the beginning, with Israel who have remained.

I do not believe anyone can lose their salvation, once in Christ, Christ cannot disown Himself. If they left, they were never His in the first place.

The tree of life has been there from the beginning hidden in Christ. Eat of His flesh drink of His blood, the word and the life He lived as an example for us.

 

[kyredneck]

....Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance......

...which sounds as if you're applying eternal consequences to being 'cut off'.

Why would the 'cutting off' of Ro 11:22 be any different than the 'cutting off' of 1 Cor 5:5?:

“to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”.

....destroyed temporally but not eternally.

BUMP

What is it in Ro 11:22 that makes you believe there are ETERNAL consequences to being 'cut off'?

 

[Skandelon]

BUMP

What is it in Ro 11:22 that makes you believe there are ETERNAL consequences to being 'cut off'?

Nothing. I think we are actually in agreement on this point. My statement that you quoted was made to dismiss that interpretation as being untenable.

The point I was making is that being "cut off" is being equated to being "hardened." So, when Paul says God shows mercy to some and hardens others, it shouldn't be interpreted as meaning the elect (those who will certainly be saved) versus the non-elect (those who will certainly be condemned).

I believe hardening Israel (and the individual who make up Israel) was actually an act of mercy, for the very reasons you described and NOT a reflection of His condemnation of Israel (or the individual Jews being hardened.)

 

[kyredneck]

Nothing. I think we are actually in agreement on this point. My statement that you quoted was made to dismiss that interpretation as being untenable.

The point I was making is that being "cut off" is being equated to being "hardened." So, when Paul says God shows mercy to some and hardens others, it shouldn't be interpreted as meaning the elect (those who will certainly be saved) versus the non-elect (those who will certainly be condemned).

I believe hardening Israel (and the individual who make up Israel) was actually an act of mercy, for the very reasons you described and NOT a reflection of His condemnation of Israel (or the individual Jews being hardened.)

Would you agree to no eternal consequences (only temporal) to all these 'if ye continue' or 'if ye hold fast' passages?:

....to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

 

[kyredneck]

30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
31 even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. Ro 11

Would you agree from the above passage that the Jew and the Gentile have now swapped places? Where the one was, the other now is?

 

[kyredneck]

God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.....Gen 9:11

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more. Isa 54

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

Do you believe these examples that I gave in my first post coincide or are in reference to the cutting off and grafting in of Ro 11?

 

[psalms109:31]

Chosen

I believe the elect are a chosen people a certain amount a few and God through them will make the amount saved like the sands of the seashore.

They will remain faithful and the world will see their trials and tribulation. They will be an example to the world.

It is so hard to see the atonement was made for the world and all they need to do is turn to Jesus and be saved, when only a tenth will listen to you, not believe but listen.

It is so easy to come to another answer that doesn't put us at fault like the message didn't have any power. Have a pastor weeks and weeks to months and months preaching and no one come forward to receive Christ.

The soil is pretty bad out there and we need to continue to pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out more workers and to be faithful to God to a world that is not. To continue in our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you believe these examples that I gave in my first post coincide or are in reference to the cutting off and grafting in of Ro 11?

Sure there is a relation. The Barren woman, in the Isaiah passage you quoted, is God's "Church" under the Old Testament, confined within the narrow bounds of the Jewish nation...more so in respect of the very small number of true believers, and which sometimes seemed to be deserted of God her husband. She is exhorted to rejoice, and to express her joy in the strongest manner, on the reconciliation of her husband, (see ver. 6,) and on the accession of the Gentiles to her family. (see Adam Clarke)

 

[Aaron]

Clearly the branches represent here are in reference to Israel and the Gentiles. Israel is being "cut/broken off" but can be "grafted back in" "if they do not persist in unbelief." The Gentiles are being "grafted in" but can be broken off if they do not continue in faith.

The tree is Israel. The natural branches are those who are children of Abraham by the flesh, and the wild branches are people of other nations.

Now, if you take this as "individuals" who are being grafted in and cut off from salvation, then you would have to violate the doctrine of Perseverance.

Only if one contradicts the other straightforward maxims of Scripture and takes the allegory further than Paul intended.

His point is merely that one stands by faith, and the Israel of God is made up of the faithful, and that He is no respecter of persons. That's all.

 

[Aaron]

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mahatma Gandhi

How many more feel this way towards us?

Gandhi didn't know Christ, and he didn't love Him, or he would love "our" Christians.

Stop taking your cues from the world.