What is meant by being "grafted in" and "cut off?"

[kyredneck]

The tree is Israel.....takes the allegory further than Paul intended.

If the tree is Israel, what is the the fatness of the olive tree? Or how is it that the root bears the branches? What are the branches partaking of?

....thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree..... it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.vv 17,18

Or is this taking the allegory further than Paul intended?

 

[Skandelon]

The tree is Israel. The natural branches are those who are children of Abraham by the flesh, and the wild branches are people of other nations.

So, what is the significance or meaning of an individual Jews or individual Gentile being cut off or grafted into this tree?

His point is merely that one stands by faith, and the Israel of God is made up of the faithful, and that He is no respecter of persons. That's all.

So, it means that those being shown mercy are those who pursue righteousness as if it were by faith, and those being hardened are those who pursue it as if it were by works of the law, right? Not the presumed Calvinistic view that those being shown mercy are the predetermined elect individuals and those being hardened are the non-elect ones.

 

[psalms109:31]

Gandhi didn't know Christ, and he didn't love Him, or he would love "our" Christians.

Stop taking your cues from the world.

I never said Gandhi or his quote said he loved Jesus it is a view how others might see us who are to be a light to the world. It is your opinion of what I said is a world view.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us...


We are to be like Christ as an ambassadors not unlike Him.

 

[Skandelon]

If the tree is Israel, what is the the fatness of the olive tree? Or how is it that the root bears the branches? What are the branches partaking of?

I agree, it's not Israel, but the Church or possibly the gospel, which is representative of what the branches are partaking in by being attached. Even Gill teaches the tree is representative of the "gospel church" if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[kyredneck]

I agree, it's not Israel, but the Church or possibly the gospel, which is representative of what the branches are partaking in by being attached. Even Gill teaches the tree is representative of the "gospel church" if my memory serves me correctly.

The passage says that we Gentiles didst become partaker with them [Jews] of the root of the fatness of the olive tree.

I tend to believe that Paul is referring to the blessings from God that the [true] Jews had derived from the old covenant. [edit] I said old covenant, I don't know if I said that right. Perhaps I meant advantages. What advantage then hath the Jew? Ro 3:1

 

[kyredneck]

I'll rephrase:

I tend to believe that Paul is referring to the advantages that the Jews enjoyed from being in covenant with God.

What advantage then hath the Jew? Ro 3:1

 

[psalms109:31]

Gandhi didn't know Christ, and he didn't love Him, or he would love "our" Christians.

Stop taking your cues from the world.

I have changed my signature so it will not offend my brothers and sisters if it has forgive me.

 

[Skandelon]

The passage says that we Gentiles didst become partaker with them [Jews] of the root of the fatness of the olive tree.

I tend to believe that Paul is referring to the blessings from God that the [true] Jews had derived from the old covenant. [edit] I said old covenant, I don't know if I said that right. Perhaps I meant advantages. What advantage then hath the Jew? Ro 3:1

I can see that. In the OT the revelations of God came through Israel, right. In the NT the revelations of God come through his Bride..THE CHURCH, right? Isn't that the correlation of the tree? That through which mankind receive (and I would say freely respond to) God's revelation?

 

[Aaron]

If the tree is Israel, what is the the fatness of the olive tree? Or how is it that the root bears the branches? What are the branches partaking of?

....thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree..... it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.vv 17,18

Or is this taking the allegory further than Paul intended?

The tree is the Israel of God, the true chosen nation, born of the Spirit and not of the flesh, true children of Abraham by faith, true Jews, the Church. Christ is the root, and the "fatness" or "nourishment" is what gives the tree life, the Spirit.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Aaron]

I agree, it's not Israel, but the Church or possibly the gospel, which is representative of what the branches are partaking in by being attached. Even Gill teaches the tree is representative of the "gospel church" if my memory serves me correctly.

Paul speaks of two Israels. Israel according to the flesh, and Israel according to the Spirit. It's exactly like speaking of the burnt offering and the offering of Christ. One was a type and shadow of the true. Israel according the flesh was a type and shadow of the true Israel, those who are children of Abraham by faith. Just as the blood of bulls and goats never pleased God, Israel according the flesh were never the apple of His eye.

In Romans 11, the tree is the true Israel, the natural branches are those who are children of Abraham by blood, Those without faith were cut off. The wild branches are those of faith who are not of Abraham by blood. They were wild, but they were still olives, olives with faith, and therefore part of the Israel of God.

One takes Paul's allegory too far when he thinks that Paul's check of one's pride in thinking he was chosen because of some natural quality is more than that, and tries to interpret the tree beyond the main point of Paul's discourse:

Those who stand, stand by faith, and there is no respecting of persons with God.

 

[convicted1]

The tree is the Israel of God, the true chosen nation, born of the Spirit and not of the flesh, true children of Abraham by faith, true Jews, the Church. Christ is the root, and the "fatness" or "nourishment" is what gives the tree life, the Spirit.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Bro. Aaron,

Do you believe that the "Israel" spoken of in the NT is referring to the nation Israel, or the church? I believe the church(body of Christ), is now Israel, and not the nation of Israel. What are your thoughts??

 

[Aaron]

Yes. The Israel of God is the Church. But there are two kinds of jews spoken of in the NT. Those who are natural descendents of Abraham, and those who are the Sons of Abraham by faith, whether they are natural jew or gentile. One must be clear which one is being spoken of. Paul compares those who are only natural sons to Ishmael, and those who are Sons by faith, whether jew or gentile, to Isaac. Hagar's son was a child of the flesh, but Isaac was a child of promise.

What says the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the slave is not heir with the free.

In Romans 11, the tree is the Israel of God. Not natural Israel. Natural Israel is cut off, and true Israel is grafted in.

 

[kyredneck]

... Not the presumed Calvinistic view ....

For the love of God, why can't you drop this obsession with 'Calvinism', or rather stamping it out, and just have a frank, candid dicussion of the facts of scripture that are at hand? Is that what your life is all about, refuting Calvinism?

 

[kyredneck]

The tree is the Israel of God, the true chosen nation, born of the Spirit and not of the flesh, true children of Abraham by faith, true Jews, the Church. Christ is the root, and the "fatness" or "nourishment" is what gives the tree life, the Spirit.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm 99.999% in agreement with you, I think. So are you thinking the vine of Jn 15 and the tree (or root) of Ro 11 are the same?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

 

[Skandelon]

In Romans 11, the tree is the true Israel, the natural branches are those who are children of Abraham by blood, Those without faith were cut off.

So those who don't believe are cut off from "true Israel," which means they are separated from Christ (the root) and the Spirit (the nourishment)?

But doesn't being cut off from something imply one was once attached to it? How is one attached to Christ and being nourished by the Spirit get detached?

The wild branches are those of faith who are not of Abraham by blood. They were wild, but they were still olives, olives with faith, and therefore part of the Israel of God.

These Jews who were cut off, were they once attached to the true Israel, Christ (the root) and the Spirits nourishment?

Couldn't it just be that the tree represents the revelation of God by which men respond either in faith or unbelief? Special revelation came through Israel thus making them the natural branches, but now the revelation is coming through the church which the Gentiles are joining in great numbers...being grafted into the revelation of God so as to respond either in his "kindness" or in unbelief and pride.

Those who stand, stand by faith, and there is no respecting of persons with God.

What do you mean by "stand?" Are you equating that with being grafted in the tree? And falling with being "cut off" of the tree? Explain.

 

[Skandelon]

For the love of God, why can't you drop this obsession with 'Calvinism', or rather stamping it out, and just have a frank, candid dicussion of the facts of scripture that are at hand? Is that what your life is all about, refuting Calvinism?

Excuse me, but that wasn't even a post in response to you. It was directed toward Aaron in reflection to another thread.

Plus, the rules state you shouldn't make personal attacks, so please refrain from questioning my motives and accusing me of "obsessing" when that is not an appropriate topic. You can PM me if you have a personal issue to discuss. Thank you.

 

[kyredneck]

The passage says that we Gentiles didst become partaker with them [Jews] of the root of the fatness of the olive tree.....

....I tend to believe that Paul is referring to the advantages that the Jews enjoyed from being in covenant with God.

What advantage then hath the Jew? Ro 3:1

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3:1

This may seem off topic, but I assure you that it is not. It strikes right at the heart and core of the matter of God not being a respector of persons, and the fatness of the olive tree that the Jews had partaken of prior to being cut of and the Gentiles being grafted in.

What prompted Paul to ask this question posed in Ro 3:1?

 

[kyredneck]

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3:1

Why did Paul ask this? What prompted him?

 

[kyredneck]

Excuse me, but that wasn't even a post in response to you. It was directed toward Aaron in reflection to another thread.

Plus, the rules state you shouldn't make personal attacks, so please refrain from questioning my motives and accusing me of "obsessing" when that is not an appropriate topic. You can PM me if you have a personal issue to discuss. Thank you.

My apologies. I suppose I was out of line, I didn't intend to attack you; but this has been the persona I have percieved from you.

 

[Aaron]

So those who don't believe are cut off from "true Israel," which means they are separated from Christ (the root) and the Spirit (the nourishment)?

But doesn't being cut off from something imply one was once attached to it? How is one attached to Christ and being nourished by the Spirit get detached?

This is where you take the allegory too far. It's kind of like taking the Parable of the Unjust Judge too far and concluding that God only answers our prayers to get us off His back. The point of the parable was to pray and not grow weary of it, even though from our point of view God has turned a deaf ear to us.

The point of Paul's allegory is that the Israel of God is made up of people from all families of the earth, that they who stand, stand by faith, and that God is no respecter of persons. You say you're a jew? So what? God can make jews of these rocks laying here.

These Jews who were cut off, were they once attached to the true Israel, Christ (the root) and the Spirits nourishment?

From our point of view, the corrupt natural branches appeared to have been a part of the Israel of God all along, and are simply being cut off now because of the Gospel. The temptation of people from other families is to think the jews were cut off to make room for them, but Paul is plain, they were cut off because of unbelief. It isn't that they believed and then quit believing. They had always abided in unbelief, though they reaped the carnal benefits of the blessings of God under the Old Testament, e.g., prosperity, safety, nobility, etc. But now the judgment of God has come upon their unbelief. It's now apparent that the law and the prophets have been fulfilled, and though they once knew Christ by the flesh, they now know Him that way no more, 2 Cor. 5:16. There is no more temple, no more sacrifice, no more priesthood. No one may approach that way anymore.

Those in unbelief never were a part of the Israel of God. But the tree is being purged and the wild olive branches, sheep not of this fold, are being grafted in. So all Israel will be saved.

Couldn't it just be that the tree represents the revelation of God by which men respond either in faith or unbelief? Special revelation came through Israel thus making them the natural branches, but now the revelation is coming through the church which the Gentiles are joining in great numbers...being grafted into the revelation of God so as to respond either in his "kindness" or in unbelief and pride.

No, and even naturally speaking that's a reach. If that were the case it would seem the people would be better represented not as branches, but as gleaners picking the fruit.

What do you mean by "stand?"

Stand. IOW pleasing to God. Living justly.

Are you equating that with being grafted in the tree?

Abiding in the tree, yes. It's the root, Christ, that bears us, and the Spirit that gives us life.

And falling with being "cut off" of the tree? Explain

No. Being cut off is a judgment.