WHY Is It So "bad" If God uses Election As basis For Salvation/Redemption than?

[JesusFan]

IF one accepts my basic premise that ALL humans were born into having a sinful nature due to the Fall of Adam, who was Head of human family before the Lord...

And IF we cannot come to god by our own violation, dead in sins and transgressions...

IF all humans were thus by their own natures and wills bent on hell, Unlesss the Lord directly intervened to save some...

Why does this make God out to be a "meanie?'

He chose to send his Son, to die in order to secure salvation for an Elected people ...

isn't that Real Grace?

Instead of allowing ALL to remaiin in Sins, go to hell eternally...

Chose to save and elect His own peoples...

What is so wrong , since NONE of us deserve anything from God other than Him judging and condemning us?

 

[convicted1]

IF one accepts my basic premise that ALL humans were born into having a sinful nature due to the Fall of Adam, who was Head of human family before the Lord...

And IF we cannot come to god by our own violation, dead in sins and transgressions...

IF all humans were thus by their own natures and wills bent on hell, Unlesss the Lord directly intervened to save some...

Why does this make God out to be a "meanie?'

He chose to send his Son, to die in order to secure salvation for an Elected people ...

isn't that Real Grace?

Instead of allowing ALL to remaiin in Sins, go to hell eternally...

Chose to save and elect His own peoples...

What is so wrong , since NONE of us deserve anything from God other than Him judging and condemning us?

There is so much of His Word that I need a better understanding of, but the concept of Him taking some in(elect), and leaving the others to perish without any hope whatsoever, seems to go against His charcter.

In John chapter 6, when He is talking about no one can come unto Him unless His Father draws them, He is talking "in the now", meaning those who saw Him in His fleshly body. Here is a key verse to support this:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He stated here, "which seeth the Son", so this must be those who saw Jesus at the time He was in the flesh. Now look at what He states He will do once He was to be slain:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

While Jesus was here, He chose the ones to do His will, and He chose to give them the gifts they had. After He was risen, He has chosen to draw all men, but unfortunately, not all will come to Him.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan,

IF one accepts my basic premise that ALL humans were born into having a sinful nature due to the Fall of Adam, who was Head of human family before the Lord...

And IF we cannot come to god by our own violation, dead in sins and transgressions...

IF all humans were thus by their own natures and wills bent on hell, Unlesss the Lord directly intervened to save some...

Why does this make God out to be a "meanie?'

He chose to send his Son, to die in order to secure salvation for an Elected people ...

isn't that Real Grace?

Instead of allowing ALL to remaiin in Sins, go to hell eternally...

Chose to save and elect His own peoples...

What is so wrong , since NONE of us deserve anything from God other than Him judging and condemning us?

The reason your views should be rejected is not because they turn God into a meany, but because they are unbiblical. We are to believe what the Bible actually says, and not in the misunderstanding of well intentioned men.

You first premise, we are all spiritually dead, made sinners by the one (Adam) is biblical.

You second premise however is unclear: Here is what you said. "And IF we cannot come to god by our own violation, dead in sins and transgressions..."

There is support for not being able to come to God "by our own volition" but no support that we cannot strive to come to God "by our own volition."

Your third premise, then goes completely off the rails, a total fiction according to scripture. Here is what you said, "IF all humans were thus by their own natures and wills bent on hell, Unlesss the Lord directly intervened to save some...

Romans 9:30-33 tells us of spiritually dead folks who were striving to obtain the righteousness of God, and so at that time, they were not willing for Hell.
When we are volitionally sinning, then we are willing for Hell, and we all sin. But even though we are dead in our sins and predisposed to sin, and we sin every day, this does not support the Calvinist assertion that at no time do we seek God. Again, this reflects my minimalist approach to understanding scripture. In Romans 7 we have Paul recalling how he sinned but did not want to sin, at least some of the time. This captures the reality of our condition. The "one size fits all" view of Calvinism is simply unbiblical.

Last point, you said: "What is so wrong , since NONE of us deserve anything from God other than Him judging and condemning us?"
There is absolutely nothing wrong with God having mercy on whom He has mercy. None of us deserve anything other than judgment and condemnation. All true.

So what would turn God into a meany. Calvinism where God predestines everything because He foreknows everything (according to Boettner) so God according to this Closed Theism view, predestines people to sin, then punishes them for the sin He predestined them to do.

On the other hand, if He created us and allows us to be able to make choices autonomously that alter the outcome of our lives, then we are responsible for our sins and giving us justice is not mean, but just and perfect and good.

 

[JesusFan]

The reason your views should be rejected is not because they turn God into a meany, but because they are unbiblical. We are to believe what the Bible actually says, and not in the misunderstanding of well intentioned men.

You first premise, we are all spiritually dead, made sinners by the one (Adam) is biblical.

You second premise however is unclear: Here is what you said. "And IF we cannot come to god by our own violation, dead in sins and transgressions..."

There is support for not being able to come to God "by our own volition" but no support that we cannot strive to come to God "by our own volition."

We, by our very natures, are at emnity/war with God, none seek after the Lord "of their own free will"

Your third premise, then goes completely off the rails, a total fiction according to scripture. Here is what you said, "IF all humans were thus by their own natures and wills bent on hell, Unlesss the Lord directly intervened to save some...

Romans 9:30-33 tells us of spiritually dead folks who were striving to obtain the righteousness of God, and so at that time, they were not willing for Hell.
When we are volitionally sinning, then we are willing for Hell, and we all sin. But even though we are dead in our sins and predisposed to sin, and we sin every day, this does not support the Calvinist assertion that at no time do we seek God. Again, this reflects my minimalist approach to understanding scripture. In Romans 7 we have Paul recalling how he sinned but did not want to sin, at least some of the time. This captures the reality of our condition. The "one size fits all" view of Calvinism is simply unbiblical.

Not a "fiction"... man, left to his own violation, "free will" will chose to walk in darkness, and will be bent on not obeying the Lord, or coming to Him, as our very "natural" natures preclude that...

Last point, you said: "What is so wrong , since NONE of us deserve anything from God other than Him judging and condemning us?"
There is absolutely nothing wrong with God having mercy on whom He has mercy. None of us deserve anything other than judgment and condemnation. All true.

So what would turn God into a meany. Calvinism where God predestines everything because He foreknows everything (according to Boettner) so God according to this Closed Theism view, predestines people to sin, then punishes them for the sin He predestined them to do.

God is NOT direct cause of all things though...
Knows ALL things that will/can happen, can intervene at any time he chooses to BUT...

Did not 'force" Lucifer to sin, or adam
Does not 'force " people to Hell
mankind still "free" to choose, just that w/o the Lord directly causing us to become regenerated/saved, will not come unto Him...

On the other hand, if He created us and allows us to be able to make choices autonomously that alter the outcome of our lives, then we are responsible for our sins and giving us justice is not mean, but just and perfect and good.

Just remember Ap[ostle paul telling us about the potter and his Clay vessels.
'Some" he created for his glory/use, others for destruction..
Burt WHO are we to argue against how the Potter choses to work?

 

[Winman]

Just remember Ap[ostle paul telling us about the potter and his Clay vessels.
'Some" he created for his glory/use, others for destruction..
Burt WHO are we to argue against how the Potter choses to work?

By your own analogy you make God to be cruel. I do not know of any potter who purposely fashions a piece of pottery simply that he can dash it in pieces. God is comparing himself to a potter, but no potter does this. All potters try to make a good piece of pottery, there is no profit in making bad pottery. None. And destroying the defective pottery does not glorify the potter.

It is when despite the potter's best effort to make a good and useful work, the pottery has a flaw in it that renders it useless for the purpose it was intended, that the potter destroys the pottery.

And thus it is with man. God makes every attempt to reconcile himself with the sinner, to correct the sinner and give him a good heart and mind that is meet for the purposes he intended. The fault lies in us in that we rebel against God and his calling to all men.

Thus, if we will not be corrected we are fit for destruction and are smashed to pieces.

 

[JesusFan]

By your own analogy you make God to be cruel. I do not know of any potter who purposely fashions a piece of pottery simply that he can dash it in pieces. God is comparing himself to a potter, but no potter does this. All potters try to make a good piece of pottery, there is no profit in making bad pottery. None. And destroying the defective pottery does not glorify the potter.

except paul describes to us fact that the Lord DOES create those vessels "fit for destruction" to be dashed/smashed...
So that God will get the glory..
Like Pharoah and Judas, those 2 were used by God in his "Plan" to redeem Israel and those in Church...
Bible makes it quite clear those 2 did what they already wanted to do, God hardened them off, used their own "free will" to bring glory to Himself...

It is when despite the potter's best effort to make a good and useful work, the pottery has a flaw in it that renders it useless for the purpose it was intended, that the potter destroys the pottery.

See above, God hardened and "smashed" Pharoah and Judas to have His will done...

And thus it is with man. God makes every attempt to reconcile himself with the sinner, to correct the sinner and give him a good heart and mind that is meet for the purposes he intended. The fault lies in us in that we rebel against God and his calling to all men.

God calls man to Himself through the Cross, but God elects/choses those who will receive its full benefits...
God does not need to make "every attempt" to reconcile Himself to sinners, as He does bring to salvation all those he has elected unto life in Christ Jesus...

Thus, if we will not be corrected we are fit for destruction and are smashed to pieces.

Unless God himself steps in and calls us/elects us we are ALL doomed to get "smashed"

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan

Just remember Ap[ostle paul telling us about the potter and his Clay vessels.
'Some" he created for his glory/use, others for destruction..
Burt WHO are we to argue against how the Potter chooses to work?

This is a common misconception. You appear to be saying God made some folks for damnation and other folks for mercy because He had chosen those outcomes for their lives before creation. But lets actually look at the text.

Romans 9:21 says, NASB, "Does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another vessel for common use? When does it say God makes a person for honorable use and another for common use. Look closely. Does it say before creation. Does it say at conception? Does it give any clue to when He makes from the same lump vessels for honorable or common use. So your view is not supported by this verse. The assumption about timing is simply an assumption not found in this verse.

Next, God endures with much patience "vessels of wrath" prepared for destruction, verse 22. Lets go back to the same set of questions, when did God make vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Again, this verse does not say, we have to look elsewhere to answer that question. Ditto for verse 23 and the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.

Now lets turn to vessels of wrath. "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. And among them we too all formerly lived, in the lusts of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest, Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB

So how did we become "dead in our trespasses?" Were we not conceived in iniquity, made sinners by the disobedience of Adam? So what prepared us as vessels of wrath? The Fall!

And what makes us vessels of mercy? Being spiritually placed in Christ, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God.

 

[Winman]

Unless God himself steps in and calls us/elects us we are ALL doomed to get "smashed"

Went right over your head. When God or Jesus used parables or made comparisons to common things, this was to explain things to us about God in terms that the average man could understand. A potter was a common occupation that all men were familiar with in ancient days, much more so than now.

A potter was an occupation, it was a job, it was how certain men made their livelihood. A potter in no way would spend his time making defective pottery. It would be a complete waste of time, materials, and money. A potter would ALWAYS and in each case try to make a useful piece that could be used for some intended purpose. If a piece had a flaw, he might try to save it by fashioning it into another piece with a less noble purpose. Only when there was some flaw so serious that it rendered a piece completely useless for any purpose was it destroyed.

An ancient person would clearly understand this, and in no way believe that Paul was saying that God purposely or intentionally created persons for the sole purpose of destroying them. No potter in his right mind would waste his time, energy, and money doing this.

If persons would take the time to seriously consider and think about this comparison of God to a potter they would realize this, but you have simply accepted what someone else told you without applying thought to it.

If a person will not make the effort to truly think for themselves, they will be easily misled by others.

 

[jbh28]

Unless God himself steps in and calls us/elects us we are ALL doomed to get "smashed"

JesusFan, do you believe God elects people to hell or just to heaven?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

There is nothing wrong with God being sovereign and exercising his Divine rights.

He is perfect and we're not. People should not judge God.

Here is my view on judging God:

http://osagebluestem.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/judging-god/

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan, do you believe God elects people to hell or just to heaven?

Do Not believe in what has been called "double predestination" Belief that God has dual election going, some to Heaven, rest to Hell..

Believe that ALL of us are born with taint of Original Sin, that we cannot save ourselves, and That God has chosen by his Election to call out a Remnant of people from a Race of people who would all go to Hell IF he chose to do "nothing"...

God provided the Cross/Death of Jesus as atonment for Sin,and God has chosen/selected who would be granted the salavtion provised for thru the Cross...

Guess what I hold is: ALL of us are sinners by birth and behaviour, and ONLY if God does Does His saving work to redeem His elected saints, all of us would be lost///