Does One HAVE To Hold To Limited Atonement To Be A Calvinist Than?

[JesusFan]

I believe strongly in 4 of 5 points in TULIP, but still take tact that Jesus DID die/atone was a propiation for sins of entire World...

That His death made it possible that all can be saved, but ONLY those elected out by God would receive the benefits of it...

MUST one be a " 5 pointer" to be considered a "true" calvinist?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes you do.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

Yes you do.:smilewinkgrin:

So where than would someone who agrees with salvation model of Calvinism except for the part of limited atonment , be seen as ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So where than would someone who agrees with salvation model of Calvinism except for the part of limited atonment , be seen as ?

He would be seen as a Christian who doesn't understand Limited Atonement well enough to incorporate it into his theology. In my own case, it came with time & study. However I will say this, if you view any of it from your own human efforts of right & wrong, you will never understand it.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[jbh28]

JesusFan, do you believe the death of Christ was sufficient for all men and efficient only for the elect?

Do you believe that the atonement was ever intended to save unbelievers, or was it always intended to save the believers?

 

[StefanM]

MUST one be a " 5 pointer" to be considered a "true" calvinist?

Yes. You would be an Amyraldian, most likely.

Also, you could classify yourself as a monergist, but you really wouldn't be a true "Calvinist" without believing all of the five points of the Synod of Dordt. I know there is some debate about whether or not Calvin fully believed in limited atonement, but IMO the term "Calvinist" usually refers to someone who at least conforms to all 5 points. I would argue that a true Calvinist also adheres to covenant theology.

Others can be Calvinistic, but I don't think it's helpful to claim the moniker "Calvinist" if you don't really fit the mold.

One could also argue that a Baptist could never be a true Calvinist because of his or her belief in credobaptism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

JesusFan, do you believe the death of Christ was sufficient for all men and efficient only for the elect?

Do you believe that the atonement was ever intended to save unbelievers, or was it always intended to save the believers?

Here is an other seemingly odd question that George Whitefield once asked a group of Scots just prior to entering a Church on Sunday. Do you sincerely & with all your heart truly believe in Jesus Christ? Think about that for a moment!

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan, do you believe the death of Christ was sufficient for all men and efficient only for the elect?
yes, if this means that God could have "potentially" paid for the Sins of the entire World, made it "possible" to save them, but ONLY those he has chosen to be elected actually ARE saved....


Do you believe that the atonement was ever intended to save unbelievers, or was it always intended to save the believers?

Always was intended to just be applied to cover directly all sins of those elcted by God....

Its hard to explain, but like under "potentally" would be 'for God so luved entire World"
Under actual "chosen and elected in Him before the foundation of the World"..

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. You would be an Amyraldian, most likely.

Also, you could classify yourself as a monergist, but you really wouldn't be a true "Calvinist" without believing all of the five points of the Synod of Dordt. I know there is some debate about whether or not Calvin fully believed in limited atonement, but IMO the term "Calvinist" usually refers to someone who at least conforms to all 5 points. I would argue that a true Calvinist also adheres to covenant theology.

So one can be a "calvinist" in regards to holding the TULIP model, but in order to be considered a "true" one, needs to have alsoCovenant theology, including the eschatology, baptism, etc?


Others can be Calvinistic, but I don't think it's helpful to claim the moniker "Calvinist" if you don't really fit the mold.

One could also argue that a Baptist could never be a true Calvinist because of his or her belief in credobaptism.

But we can claim to be TULIP believrs, so reformed in just the aspect of how salvation is applied?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes. You would be an Amyraldian, most likely.

Also, you could classify yourself as a monergist, but you really wouldn't be a true "Calvinist" without believing all of the five points of the Synod of Dordt. I know there is some debate about whether or not Calvin fully believed in limited atonement, but IMO the term "Calvinist" usually refers to someone who at least conforms to all 5 points. I would argue that a true Calvinist also adheres to covenant theology.

Others can be Calvinistic, but I don't think it's helpful to claim the moniker "Calvinist" if you don't really fit the mold.

One could also argue that a Baptist could never be a true Calvinist because of his or her belief in credobaptism.

LOL, reminds me of the old teaching song I heard as a child..... " Or would you rather be a {Pig, Dog, Cat etc} only we can go thru all these names ....or would you rather be a { Arminian, Pelagian, Dortian, Zwinglian,Anglican, Presbyterian etc} :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jim1999]

True calvinism: the atonement is sufficient for all, but efficient for some; the elect of God.

You go from there.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

He would be seen as a Christian who doesn't understand Limited Atonement well enough to incorporate it into his theology. In my own case, it came with time & study. However I will say this, if you view any of it from your own human efforts of right & wrong, you will never understand it.:smilewinkgrin:

There you go. All you need to do is throw away your sense of right and wrong, and you can believe in Limited Atonement.

But you need to throw away a bit more, you need to throw away your common sense as well. You have to be able to convince yourself that terms like "all men", "every man", "the whole world" really only mean a few elect.

If you can do this, you will qualify as a full fledged Calvinist. It's not hard, you just have to stop thinking.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

True calvinism: the atonement is sufficient for all, but efficient for some; the elect of God.

You go from there.

Cheers,

Jim

Yes sir & everything is viewed from the absolute sovereignty of God. This guy is just looking for a controversial conversation. Note all the posts started by em.

 

[StefanM]

But we can claim to be TULIP believrs, so reformed in just the aspect of how salvation is applied?

No, you can't. You can't claim the "L" if you don't believe it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, you can't. You can't claim the "L" if you don't believe it.

yes, they have to flow together, but I dislike the name Limited Atonement because it suggests the death of Christ was of limited value & thats not what a true Calvinist wants to convey. I call it Particular Redemption or if you prefer than we can call it Definite Atonement.

 

[StefanM]

yes, they have to flow together, but I dislike the name Limited Atonement because it suggests the death of Christ was of limited value & thats not what a true Calvinist wants to convey. I call it Particular Redemption or if you prefer than we can call it Definite Atonement.

And it is often pointed out that all theories of the atonement limit it in some way, outside of universalism. It is either limited in intent and efficacy or only in efficacy, but it is not universal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And it is often pointed out that all theories of the atonement limit it in some way, outside of universalism. It is either limited in intent and efficacy or only in efficacy, but it is not universal.

Exactly & this is why I prefer Particular Redemption as a descriptive. I also would modify Total Depravity to Total Inability to define the state your in prior to regeneration. bottom line I maintain the acrostic TULIP must be updated to address Doctrines of Grace properly. TULIP misrepresents the Doctrines. :godisgood:

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

There you go. All you need to do is throw away your sense of right and wrong, and you can believe in Limited Atonement.

But you need to throw away a bit more, you need to throw away your common sense as well. You have to be able to convince yourself that terms like "all men", "every man", "the whole world" really only mean a few elect.

If you can do this, you will qualify as a full fledged Calvinist. It's not hard, you just have to stop thinking.

All means All and every man includes every man there is! This way of thinking doesn't hold up if you are thinking universally. For instance in the 12th chapter of Romans it says within the 3rd verse according as God dealt to every man the measure of faith. Well then all men have faith one would conclude. But in the context of the verse it says first to every man that is among you, If we go back to the beginning of the Letter to see who it was addressed to it was, chapter 1:7 To all that be in Rome, The entire Roman population you conclude......No 1:7 beloved of God, called to be saints: In the 8th verse Paul further tells who they are First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all All again, who are the all being considered. that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Well is every single person in the world talking about their faith or those through out the world that be of like faith? These of the faith are the all being considered that Paul has a desire that they may be established. Well now going back to the 12th chapter of Romans looking at 5th verse we can clearly see who the everyman is that was dealt a measure of faith. 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, So the everyman is limited to those that make up the body that is His bride which is the Church of the living God. Now consider 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. Well which is it then? everyman has faith or all men have not faith. Shall we take all men have not faith to mean all men universally? Well that would be an error as much as saying every man universally has faith.

Some more samples look at Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. "All" of those that were with Jesus Christ, not everyone in the land of Judaea.
Matthew 21:22 And all things, Whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. "All" righteous things. Not evil things.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. "All" power of Satan is limited as well, for Satan is only the father of lies, satan can't give life, but only death, satan can't resurrect anyone from the dead.
So actually it is not a matter of stop thinking but a study of the scriptures.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There you go. All you need to do is throw away your sense of right and wrong, and you can believe in Limited Atonement.

But you need to throw away a bit more, you need to throw away your common sense as well. You have to be able to convince yourself that terms like "all men", "every man", "the whole world" really only mean a few elect.

If you can do this, you will qualify as a full fledged Calvinist. It's not hard, you just have to stop thinking.

Your pretzel logic.....naaaaaaa :smilewinkgrin: no thanks. ROFL!:laugh::laugh::laugh: