Identity of Babylon in Revelation Made Easy

Gentry has a book, Revelation made Easy" and a similar book "The Beast of Revelation" http://www.amazon.com/dp/0915815419/?tag=baptis04-20

I haven't read that one but the best I've read on the subject is by Don Preston:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0938855263/?tag=baptis04-20

 

So "mystery Babylon" has been identified as Jerusalem circa 70 AD. How exactly is it a "mystery" if we can pinpoint it down to the exact location and year?

 

Hello Hank. I have been busy elsewhere. Among other things, we are getting ready to move to Florida in a couple of weeks.

I hope you are doing fine.

 

This mystery is, in one sense, comparable to prophecy. Just because the fulfillment on many of the Messianic prophecies are now well known to us, doesn't make them any less prophecies. Likewise the mysteries.

Mysteries get solved. Prophecies get fulfilled.

 

Hello Kyredneck. I hope you are doing well.

Josephus also says that it was the Jews themselves who were destroying their city and temple, not the Roman leaders (Titus and Vespasian, who wanted to save them.) This ties in well with the prophecy of Daniel 9:26:

"And the people [that is, the Jews] of the Prince who is to come [Christ, according to immediate context] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

 

Doing well.

The great thing about a blog is that even if you move it's transparent to the other bloggers unless you tell them.

May God bless you in your move.

HankD

 

Thanks. And the bad thing about a move is the gap in Internet access. And you know how Preterists don't like gaps ; )

 

Mysteries in Scripture are those things that man cannot explain, but God can. Scripture was written as much to us today as it was in the first century. Mystery Babylon is just that...a mystery know only to God at this point and until the end of the age.

 

... and did.

No argument here. But we don't ignore 1st century explanations that furthers our application.

Until the end of the age. No argument here either - with the qualification of Jewish age.

 

Apparently not clear enough as there is much debate on who it is from numerous Spirit filled believers.

Agreed, and it was pointing to a future time that has yet to be realized.

Again, that is up for debate. It was written during the time of the Gentiles, and I was referring to the end our our age.

 

Interesting...
IF Apostle John wrote revelation in mid 90's, as I believe factual data supports, why even have the temple/jerusalem as being babylon, as it already would had occurred?

IF The Jewish Age ended at AD 70, than why was Paul adament that God STILL was not finishing dealing with His jewish people...

Think IF we read the prophecies of OT/NT in their entirity, will see that there MUST actually be a future aspect to Revelation, as the MAIN purpose of the Great Tribulation to come will be to prepare the Jewish people to receive their messiah when he comes back at His second Coming...

Eliminate ANY future fulfillment of Revelation, and have the strange situation happen where God literally would have fulfilled his promises in OT. and than have it symbolically fulfilled!

 

Indeed :thumbsup:

HankD

 

Hello Tom. I'm better now; there was several months there that I was nearly totally consumed with tending to my parents, but we've finally got Mom into an outstanding nursing home that can give her the care that she requires (not easy to find, IME), and subsequently Dad is much better now, and I'm getting some semblance of a routine back into my life.

I hope everything is well with you.

Josephus laments several times over the fact that his fellow countrymen were literally self destructing.

Here is an excerpt from 'The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation' by Phillip Mauro:

“SELF-INFLICTED SUFFERINGS

In the light, therefore, of this comparison of scripture with scripture, we think it plain that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:14 was that unparalleled calamity, with its unspeakable sufferings, which befell the city and people in A.D. 70.

In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).

What went on within the distressed city calls to mind the words of Isaiah:

"Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel (the food) of the fire. No man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied; they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His wrath is poured out still" (#Isa 9:19-21).” Mauro, Chap 13, 70 Wks.

This madness that set in on the people was foretold in other places:

For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor`s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. Zech 11:6

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. Zech 14:13

I came to cast fire upon the earth [i.e. 'the land']; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth [the land]? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Lu 12:49-52

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

Excerpts from Josephus, 'Wars of the Jews':

“.....I Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work].....”

“WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; ..........” Preface; sec.1

“.....Yet shall I suit my language to the passions I am under, as to the affairs I describe, and must be allowed to indulge some lamentations upon the miseries undergone by my own country. For that it was a seditious temper of our own that destroyed it, and that they were the tyrants among the Jews who brought the Roman power upon us, who unwillingly attacked us, and occasioned the burning of our holy temple, Titus Caesar, who destroyed it, is himself a witness, who, during the entire war, pitied the people who were kept under by the seditious, and did often voluntarily delay the taking of the city, and allowed time to the siege, in order to let the authors have opportunity for repentance. But if any one makes an unjust accusation against us, when we speak so passionately about the tyrants, or the robbers, or sorely bewail the misfortunes of our country, let him indulge my affections herein, though it be contrary to the rules for writing history; because it had so come to pass, that our city Jerusalem had arrived at a higher degree of felicity than any other city under the Roman government, and yet at last fell into the sorest of calamities again. Accordingly, it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews (3) are not so considerable as they were; while the authors of them were not foreigners neither. This makes it impossible for me to contain my lamentations. But if any one be inflexible in his censures of me, let him attribute the facts themselves to the historical part, and the lamentations to the writer himself only.....” Preface, sec. 4

 

“....I saw the things done, or suffered in them. For I shall not conceal any of the calamities I myself endured, since I shall relate them to such as know the truth of them....” Preface, sec. 8

“....the affairs of the Jews became very tumultuous; as also how the tyrants rose up against them, and fell into dissensions among themselves.” Preface, sec. 9

“....the barbarity of the tyrants towards the people of their own nation, as well as the indulgence of the Romans in sparing foreigners; and how often Titus, out of his desire to preserve the city and the temple, invited the seditious to come to terms of accommodation....the sufferings of the people, and their calamities; how far they were afflicted by the sedition, and how far by the famine, and at length were taken. Nor shall I omit to mention the misfortunes of the deserters, nor the punishments inflicted on the captives; as also how the temple was burnt, against the consent of Caesar; and how many sacred things that had been laid up in the temple were snatched out of the fire; the destruction also of the entire city, with the signs and wonders that went before it; and the taking the tyrants captives, and the multitude of those that were made slaves, and into what different misfortunes they were every one distributed.” Preface, sec. 11

“...I have comprehended all these things in seven books, and have left no occasion for complaint or accusation to such as have been acquainted with this war; and I have written it down for the sake of those that love truth, but not for those that please themselves [with fictitious relations]. Preface, sec. 12

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“....the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with.....” Book 6, ch. 9. sec. 4

Concerning Luke 21:22; 'For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.'

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2

“....Wherefore I cannot but suppose that God is fled out of his sanctuary, and stands on the side of those against whom you fight....” Book 5, ch. 9, sec. 4

“...But in reality it was God who condemned the whole nation, and turned every course that was taken for their preservation to their destruction.....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“.... For they [the prophets] foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, (8) and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions." Book 6, ch.2, sec. 1

“.... it was fate that decreed it so to be, which is inevitable, both as to living creatures, and as to works and places also. However, one cannot but wonder at the accuracy of this period thereto relating; for the same month and day were now observed, as I said before, wherein the holy house was burnt formerly by the Babylonians.....” Book 6, ch. 4, sec. 8

“ Now when Titus was come into this [upper] city, he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants in their mad conduct had relinquished; for when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones, and the exactness of their joints, as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself after the manner following: "We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of men or any machines do towards overthrowing these towers?........" Book 6, ch. 9, sec. 1

 

You hold true to form; many threads, many posts, many statements, no scripture.

There is no plan to 'restart' His plan for Israel sfter the flesh. The scope and magnitude of this deception never ceases to amaze me.

......Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever.....Mt 21:19

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her. And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee; and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:20-24

There may be a general incoming of the Jews to the Church someday in the future, but there's not going to be a reinstatement of the Old Covenant.

 

Never said that there will be an Old Covenant thing reintroduced..
just saying that Bible clearly shows us that in the "last days" that God will fulfill His promises to the Jewish people alive at that time of His second coming...
See it this way...
Right now we are in the "Church age of grace" and all jews MUST come by Christ just as all gentiles must... Both jews/Gentiles are one Body in Christ...
At Second Coming...
Church will already be in heavenly Jersusalem, while the jews alive atthat time WILL have an outpowering of Holy Spirit at Jesus return so massive, Supernatural that "All isreal will be saved" and than going off into Kingdom of God ruled over by Christ ushered unto the Earth..

 

Do me a favor, next time you're back in your study where you have access to a Bible, toss me a few scriptures to show me where God has some yet unfulfilled promises to physical Israel.

The Church IS the promised restoration:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15